A wave of communal violence and retribution has gripped the poorest districts of Orissa following the dastardly murder of 84-year-old Vishwa Hindu Parishat (VHP) leader Swami Lakshmanananda Saraswati, known for his campaign against the conversion of tribals to Christianity, and four others.
The police blamed Maoists for the killings but the VHP sees the hand of local Christians and has gone about extracting revenge. Over a dozen people have been killed; one woman has been burnt. 41 churches have been attacked, some have been pulled down (some even bombed, according to one allegation), and mobs have targetted Christian homes, schools and orphanges run by missionaries.
Meanwhile, in Kanpur, on Sunday, two youths associated with the Bajrang Dal were killed in an explosion at a private hostel for students, allegedly while they were assembling bombs. Following the incident, Union minister of state for home, Sri Prakash Jaiswal, has said “Hindu fundamentalist groups” were under suspicion. Journalist turned social activist Teesta Setalvad has said the Orissa attacks are “nothing short of terrorism” and demanded a ban on VHP and Bajrang Dal, a demand also echoed by railway minister Lalu Prasad Yadav.
Question: Is there a lunatic Hindu fringe just like a lunatic Islamic fringe, bent on fomenting trouble, piggybacking on contentious issues like conversions and cow slaughter? Are the VHP and Bajrang Dal as dangerous in their intents and methods as the Students’ Islamic Movement in India (SIMI)? Should the Centre ban the VHP and Bajrang Dal for their “anti-humanist and racist” attacks just as it did SIMI?
Also read: Pope plea for Orissa peace
Conversions at the root of the carnage
Tags: Bajrang Dal, Churumuri, Lalu Prasad Yadav, Maoists, Pope Benedict, Sans Serif, Sri Prakash Jaiswal, Swami Lakshmananda Saraswati, Teesta Setalvad, VHP, Vishwa Hindu Parishad
28 August 2008 at 12:34 pm
Ban or No Ban, anyone in India(read as dystopian nation) gets to do what they want … one thing I am curious about is whether they can outdo Islamic militia?
28 August 2008 at 12:48 pm
An 84 year old monk, coincidentally working on anti-conversion efforts was killed. Can we find and ban the killers first? Curiously, they find no mention here…
28 August 2008 at 12:56 pm
If they have been given the chance, defenitely they can out do Islamic militia (in India) . rememmber Gujarat, the toll was aroun 50:2000.
28 August 2008 at 12:59 pm
Whether the Bajrang Dal is as bad as the SIMI, or other islamic militant groups, is something debatable.
But one thing is certain. Given more time, if they are allowed to continue in this fashion, they will be as bad as the islamic militants one day, if not much much worse.
Yes, fringe groups like this certainly need to be banned.
28 August 2008 at 1:06 pm
It’s ironical that the question of a ban on VHP/ Bajrang Dal should be posed immediately after a piece decrying bans! Clearly, Churumuri too likes to hop on the “ban wagon” when it suits its political, ideological leanings? A ban on VHP & Co will only be as useful as the ban on SIMI. In other words, it will achieve little and will only give their nefarious reputation and activities further legitimacy.
What the VHP & Co have convincingly managed to show is that fundamentalism is not an Islamic or Christian monopoly, that Hindus too can play the game. The only difference is that unlike Islamic and Christian fundamentalists, Hindu fundamentalists are capable of showing their mettle only on their own soil, which is 80-85% Hindu anyway.
Between the burning alive of Graham Staines and his two sons while they were sleeping in a jeep and the killing of a young woman who tried to rescue children trapped in an orphanage on Monday, punctuated by the Gujarat pogrom, VHP/Bajrang Dal have become the first refuge of unemployed and unemployable Hindus who want to use their religion as a figleaf, take the law into their hands, and unleash their animal instincts.
Pitifully, all their political masters can do is applaud silently while the great name of a great religion is kicked into the ground by these self-appointed soldiers and saviours.
28 August 2008 at 1:35 pm
Ban the Christianity and governments first. This secular media gives more coverage to the killings after murder of Swamy. Ban media also. There were attemts to kill the Swamy 4 times before and he had requested security too. Media tried to misguide people by telling naxals killied him.
28 August 2008 at 2:10 pm
Come on man, what would a ‘mere’ ban do?
Why not simply hang any and every body with a Hindu Name by nearest tree or lamp post? Or better still, ask the ‘followers of religion of peace’ to bomb them all.
This would solve the problem of Christian missionaries too who are engaged in conversions in Orissa. It will save them some trouble in harvesting “heathen Hindu’ souls!
But then, let you all MSM tell us what would happen to you Guys? With out Hindus around who would ‘you’ accuse for ‘communalism’?
What would happen to the Billion Rs. “Secular Industry”?
How would Testas, Barkha Duttas, Rajdeeps, Vinod Duas , get Padamshri or what ever?
How would you (MSM) guys explain the reasoning behind formation of UPA (Ultimate Perverse alliance) that too post election results!
HUH!
In a way I am thankful to both Sonia Maino and her Stoggie – so called – PM for making ‘Hindus’ assertive.
PI.
28 August 2008 at 2:16 pm
While these tribes were struggling with poverty and mistreatment from the upper caste Hindus, where were this So called ‘Saamis’ and VHP ? Once they started converting to Christianity to get rid off this oppression from upper castes, suddenly they were identified as ‘our people ’.
28 August 2008 at 2:21 pm
It’s high time all rogue organisation like VHP and SIMI are banned.. They are irrational and machoistic. They oppress people who cannot fught back.
@ramya its nothing to do with the secular media. I dont think u have personally faced a riot. When u do u will forget that it affects only muslims or christians or hindus.
Riots are humans at their worst
28 August 2008 at 2:24 pm
Yes Ban VHP and Bajrang Dal. Lets call benny hinn to tour India so that he can convert all the heathens here.
VHP and Bajrang Dal acts as a buffer against the evangelical-mullah terrorists. Now they are atleast talking about Hindu terrorists in their jehadi and christian programs. Before they used to talk of the timid Hindu, the insulated Hindu with pointless rituals. Great progress. Hindu terrorism has always been a reaction to islamic-christian efforts. I wish the VHP and Bajrangis be more proactive and give these scoundrels a taste of their own medicine.
28 August 2008 at 2:36 pm
the RSS/BD/VHP have always been proud to flaunt thier militant strea, but they are now even push past their earlier methods of plain gundagardhi and mass-violence to bomb-making!
the Website Hinuunity.com earlier carried links to a page about a “Hindu Soldier” and how such a solider would be outfitted, areas of operation- bangladesh border and J&K, and such…..
The website is now unaccessible but cached version on Google shows a link called ” Saffron Tigers“.
They also have a Hitlist!!!
And check out the new flag of india…
and lastly….armed training camps are not just a SIMI thing….
28 August 2008 at 6:25 pm
I think if Banning all Muslim Extremist organizations requires us to be fair and ban VHP/Bajrang Dal, then I think it should be done.
A time has come where there has to be high degree of intolerance towards any kind of extremism. Linguistic (aka KRV or MNS), Religious, Casteist or Communist (Maoist). Anyone who indulges in violence against state or citizens.
We are a civil society and we will tolerate someone calling us names, as long as it is only jaw-jaw.
Cross that limit, ban the organizations, jail the leaders and show the world we can be as hard a state as China, Russia or US.
28 August 2008 at 6:25 pm
First find the people who have murdered Swami Laxamananda Saraswati
The Swamiji was first attacked first on christmas eve 2007. The Pope nor useless “secular” people of India condemed the attack.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7162787.stm
Then, the swamiji was murdered 6 days ago. Again, there is a big silence.
Only after the church was burnt by angry Hindu, does the Pope and the useless church wake up!!
Wake up Hindus. If not, soon we will be the minorities in our country.
28 August 2008 at 6:36 pm
To think… JC Wodeyar was one of the founders of VHP!
28 August 2008 at 6:49 pm
The media is awesome… Xian missionaries evangelising is plain change of religion or getting blessed for oppressed Hindus and Tribals.
BUT Arya Samaj and other organisations reconverting them is religious vendetta!
Remember that stupid forward that put forth a conspiracy that much of the media is owned by Xian organisations?
It may actually be true. :P
28 August 2008 at 7:29 pm
First thing is, banning an organization does NOT work in the long run. We all know SIMI/Lashkar E Taiba has morphed into many many groups (some 80 odd as per security agencies), took different identity and still working.
Islamist, Jehadi groups are different from any other lumpen groups like Bajrang Dal. They are against nationalism, national boundaries, constitution of India, secularism.
Apart from terrorism, these Islamist/Jehadi groups are working with ISI, engaged in distributing fake currency. SIMI worked with Kashmiri terrorist groups as well.
Is Bajrang Dal engaged into these anti-national activities? Obviously no. But for Muslim Vote, Congress is engaged into these types of talks.
This will not solve the problem- rather radicalize Hindus even further and complicate the scenario gravely.
28 August 2008 at 7:41 pm
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1071120/asp/opinion/story_8551999.asp
This piece by Ashok Desai explained the ground situation how Hindu vigilante groups rose in Gujarat (and elsewhere)- Congress did not take any action for decades against lumpen Muslim groups, particularly the underworld for decades.
Ashis Nandy also wrote abt Abdul Latifs, Dawood Ibrahims, Pathans who had big base in Gujarat in 1970s/80s.
As long as politicians will refuse to take action against criminals, lumpen elements fearing muslim votebank backlash, it will legitimize Hindu lumpens.
28 August 2008 at 8:17 pm
Ban VHP? Sure. Ban those missionaries too!!
As far as I know, there were 5 or 6 attempts to kill thise old swami. Why was it not mentioned here?
Evangelicals are nothing but modern day colonialists. They talk of ‘saving’ these tribals. Once they convert, these guys move onto next country/location. When there is so much poverty, racism and discrimination in other Christian nations, why can’t they first focus on their own community instead of creating problems over here?
28 August 2008 at 8:18 pm
Wife of Javed, Tirsat Setalvad, who went on a hate campaign against Gujarati Hindus, paiting them as murdering zealots, when in fact Congress itself had to admit that 300 (not counting 50 burnt in Godra) Hindus were killed in the final count of 1000 people who were killed in Gujarat riots. Exaggerations were made on number of deaths rangng from 2000 to 10000; claims of ‘pogrom’ were made feeding the fundamentalist fodder across the border and inside India that started a terror fund raisers frenzy!
Recent bombings by Islamists are direct result of this propaganda; they are the direct result of Dirty Suzanne Roy and Tirsat’s lies.
Tirsat, has been caught lying, making stuff up many a times before.
She calls for banning some organization.
And other eminant figure, Lalu, the comical villain, calls for banning some organization.
I guess it is clear what is the right thing to do here!
28 August 2008 at 8:19 pm
These fanatics don’t represent Hinduism or Islam!
Causing loss to humanity is not at all excusable (nether of the religion advocates it), banning them will not help we need to start dialog with them and try to resolve it amicably.
28 August 2008 at 8:38 pm
M.K. Gandhi was associated with the Congress party which went on to sponsor the ethnic cleanising of Sikhs in 1984, that too in the capital. For this infamous act why not ban the Congress party? May be the Sikhs lack a Pope to meddle on their behalf.
28 August 2008 at 9:02 pm
International Sanatana Dharma Society Condemns Murder of Hindu Swami
August 26, 2008
On Saturday, August 23rd, 2008, a terrorist mob of fundamentalist
Christians attacked a Hindu school in the eastern Indian state of
Orissa opening fire on unarmed Hindu teachers, students, and religious
leaders killing a total of five innocent people.
The respected Hindu leader, Sri Swami Lakshmanananda, who founded the
school to educate poor Hindu students, and four other Hindu volunteers
were killed Saturday in the Kandhamal district when up to 30 gunmen
barged into the Hindu school and opened fire indiscriminately,
Orissa’s chief minister’s office said.
Most significantly, this premeditated Christian terrorist attack
against this Hindu school was very consciously planned and carried out
on the most sacred day of the Hindu calendar, Sri Krishna Janmashtami,
the appearance day of Lord Sri Krishna.
The International Sanatana Dharma Society condemns these terrorist
murders in the strongest terms, and asks all peace-loving people
globally, regardless of your religious affiliation or lack thereof, to
stand with us in protesting this atrocity.
When even revered religious leaders are not safe from the threat of
violence and harm, then none of us are.
Sanatana Dharma (“Hinduism”) is the most ancient continuously
practiced spiritual tradition on earth. It is a spiritual tradition
that has been acclaimed and celebrated by multitudes of scholars,
intellectuals and religious leaders throughout history for its
foundational practices of peace, tolerance, brotherhood, compassion,
and openness.
It is the prayer of the entire one-billion member global Sanatana
Dharma community that the world may be united as one family in peace
and understanding regardless of our religious differences.
= Frank Morales.
28 August 2008 at 9:07 pm
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/aug/28orissa1.htm
Who killed Swami Lakshmanananda?
Not the Maoists, everyone except some senior state government authorities maintain.
Even the top brass of the state police say it is improbable that Maoists were responsible for the murder of the Swami and four others at his remote ashram in Orissa’s Kandhamal district on Saturday night. A senior state police officer said the modus operandi of the murders do not provide substantial evidence that the Maoists may be involved.
Here are the facts of the murder after preliminary investigations:
On Saturday, the ashram was celebrating Janmashtami, when around dinner time, a group of 30-40 armed assailants surrounded the place.
Eyewitnesses said about four of the assailants carried AK-47s and many others had country made revolvers.
Two of the four home guards stationed for security had gone to eat and only two of them were guarding the premises.
The assailants tied down the two guards, and gagged them.
They then sought out the Swamiji within the premises and opened fire on him.
The recovered bullets show they were from an AK-47, the police said.
The assailants then warned the guards not to raise an alarm and fled the scene.
Within minutes of the reaching the crime scene, the district authorities made a statement saying it was suspected Maoists who killed the Swami.
“Isn’t it far fetched? District authorities blaming a particular outfit within minutes of arriving at a crime scene?” asked Ashok Sahu, a retired IPS officer, who specialises in left wing extremism.
There are two reasons given as to why the state could have taken the Maoist line. The first is obvious, observers say.
“In December 2007, the area witnesses some of the bloodiest violence Orissa has even seen after the Swami was attacked by Christians. The state might have wanted to avert a repeat of the communal clashes and therefore could have pinned the blame on the Maoists,” one of them said.
Sahu said there could be more to the government’s action than this.
“Elections are coming in a matter of months. The state has failed miserably in tackling the Maoist insurgency. A government that has been terrorised by the Maoists may in turn be trying to terrorise the people in the name of the Maoists” he said.
Why are so many people ready to debunk the government’s Maoist attack theory so readily? The main reason is modus operandi of the execution.
“The central committee authorises the killings and the outfit issues statements owning up to the murders they commit. So many days after the murder, there has been no statement from the Maoists,” a senior police officer said.
Sahu points out the following: “The five attackers who the locals caught and handed over to the police are not Maoists. They are from the region.
“Moreover, I see no reason why the Maoists will spare the policemen on duty. They would have killed them. Then, there are the leaflets that were thrown around the ashram in a very amateurish way. The Maoists are very organised. If somebody is carrying an AK-47 he must be at least a commander. And if there are four commanders to marshal the mob, there wouldn’t have been indiscriminate firing like what we saw. And last but not the least, I have never heard or seen Maoists wear masks and hoods.
“They see themselves as revolutionaries. They never care about whether they are seen or not. In fact, I would say, they would very much want to be seen,” Sahu said.
Then, the most important question? Did the Swami’s activities in the jungle in any way make him an enemy of the Maoists? “Chances are very less. He was working for the welfare of the tribal people and against forced conversions in the region. There is nothing that suggests the Maoists would see him as a class enemy,” a senior officer said.
A local outfit, the Hindu Jagran Manch said the Swami had mentioned to an office bearer that some Maoists had joined him in a program he had organsied for the tribal people. “One day last year, I was talking to the Swami on phone, and that time there was a lot of concern about his security. So, he said, don’t you people worry. The Maoists are not a threat to me. In fact some of them are here with me,” said Lakshmikanth Das, an officer bearer of the HJM.
But do these factors clearly rule out the role of the Maoists? It is tricky, say many experts who have been following left wing extremism. “The best way this could be phrased is: ‘We do not rule out the involvement of the Maoists’.” Sahu said.
There are many reasons why the experts are undecided. “After the December 2007 clashes, even the Hindu outfits agreed that the Maoists are working in tandem with militant Christian outfits,”
Sahu agreed: “A lot of Maoists were converts to Christianity and were involved in the December violence. But this attack does not look like their work,” Sahu said.
The Maoists have long claimed that most of Orissa falls under the ‘liberated zone’. Kandhamal district with its desnse forest cover is a haven for them. In fact, the police had claimed that the recent attack on a police party in Nayagarh, where the Maoists dealt a spectacular blow to the Orissa police, was planned and coordinated from Kandhamal.
If not the Maoists, who could have killed the Swami? The needle of suspicion swings towards the militant Christian outfits. “Let’s face it, said Sahu, “even in times when the Maoist-militant Christian nexus was a possibility, there were numerous attacks and attempts on the Swami’s life.”
“There is a high possibility that this is the handiwork of militant Christian outfits. How they got such sophisticated weapons is something for the government to figure out,” said Sahu.
“The government’s responsibility to bring those responsible to book increases when you take into account the fact that the Swami received an anonymous threat only a week before he was killed. The local SP did not even register a case after the Swami lodged a formal complaint. They have to answer a lot of questions or this issue will snowball into a bigger issue than the December violence,” Das concluded.
The onus now rests on the government, which has been boxed in from almost all sides.
It has been shown up with regards to tackling Maoists, with consecutive attacks. It’s inadequacy in putting a lid on communal tension in Kandhamal have been exposed by the on-going violence in the district. And with elections looming, how it tackles the current crisis will go a long way in deciding its political future.
28 August 2008 at 9:18 pm
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/10-yr_RI_for_Varanasi_blasts_accused/articleshow/3408855.cms
You get only 10 years RI for killing 70 people!
Parliament attackers very likely to go free.
Bombay blast accused and others accused of mowing down people on the street are busy with ‘nach-gana’ shows and are having the best times of their lives.
These are the people who think Bharat is Mahaan !
28 August 2008 at 9:28 pm
BAN….what….you cannot be a Hindu in India….Why don’t you ban SIMI the organization that has been responsible for so many blasts in different parts of the country killing/ damaging so much. yes, if a little finger is hurt it pains but if the heads roll nobody bothers, I think that is the motto of Churumuri. Must be aware of what happened in Davangere in Karnataka yesterday (27th Aug) and police had to interfere and take action…it is not that the poor are converted …it has been going on in every part of the country…
28 August 2008 at 10:19 pm
ANY KIND OF EXTREMISM NEEDS TO BE NIPPED IN THE BUD. Whether it is Muslim Fundamentalism, or SIMI, or Bajrang Dal.
Bajrang Dal has far outgrown the bud stage, and it is high time their wings are clipped. A day will come when there is violence and bloodshed on every Indian street. All the thuggish lumpen elements of society will join organizations like the Bajrang Dal and vent their fury on the citizen on the road. They will fulfil all their fantasies of violence, pillage, loot and rape.
Some rascally people equate anyone who speaks against the Bajrang Dal as ‘Anti-Hindu’. These imbeciles do not realize that when society breeds organizations which run on hate, the whole society will suffer terribly one day. The thugs will not differentiate among Hindus, Muslims or Christians when the rouges in their ranks get a chance to embark on their looting sprees.
28 August 2008 at 10:25 pm
We should have had the government and other defense institutions able to protect and we should be believing in their efforts. Nobody has faith and hence this. The reality is that we will have people like VHP emerge in such a situation and they definitely will hurt their own community too eventually. That’s how it all ends or goes. Whatever the community. But until the authorities and the institutions that run our society cannot turn clean and focused, such things are going to happen. Ideally, we should have a situation where action is more common against the culprits while talk is less – because most believe that the people who are supposed to protect are doing the job. But as you see today, we talk endlessly. Reason, in my view – we trust nobody.
28 August 2008 at 10:58 pm
Ban VHP
Ban BD
Ban RSS
Ban SIMI
Ban KRV
Ban all of their ilk
and also
Ban conversions and evangelism….
Ban Jehad…
29 August 2008 at 2:58 am
>>”..What would happen to the Billion Rs. “Secular Industry”?” – Prudent Indian.
roflol :D That was a nice one. Make it a billion “dollars” though :)
29 August 2008 at 2:59 am
Catholic institutions in Karnataka to be closed for a day in Karnataka. Oh God! Wissdom dawned on the clergy now. Why didn’t they express their solidarity and sympathies when so many innocent people lost their life and limbs in terrorist attacks in different parts of the state/country? What do you want to convey? By declaring a holiday /closing schools for a day you want that thousands of children should be taught about taking revenge . Everybody should and must condemn any sort of ill treatment/crime. There is no doubt about it. Why do you want to bring the innocent children for your selfish ends? Oh God! let widom dawn on them. Solidarity needed, show your anguish and concern but don’t drag others.
29 August 2008 at 3:10 am
If VHP and Bajarang Dal started getting out of hand, that is they cease to be influenced by either the RSS or the BJP – two entities that boast about their nationalism before Hinduism – then Ban will become a necessity. Has that situation arrived yet? More pertinent would be to ask, who killed the 85 year old swami? By any chance was he eliminated by the same block that was now rushing to ask for VHP’s banning?….This conclusion could be arrived at by using the same logic that the (pseudo) secularists had made use of while analyzing Godhra train carnage and the recent Gujarat terror strikes. That it was Hindutva itself that committed both crimes to fan violence against Muslims. Hmm….then again, did I hear somebody say VHP killed the swami as well?…lol it’s getting messier with each passing day now!
29 August 2008 at 3:41 am
One more point, Teesta and Lalu are no better than the VHP and Bajrang Dal itself. They are the least eligible to be heard on such issues. They may not be as vocal as SIMI, but are only a shade apart in boasting about the so-called Muslim rights.
29 August 2008 at 4:02 am
When Swamy and four others were killed as they prepared for Krishnajanmaashtami, there was no talk of ban!
In fact, websites such as daijiworld.com operating out of mangalore lowered itself to a point where they let readers to post very provocative/anti-national posts. Recently one of the posts in the site screamed – “Musharraff is hundred times better than Advani”!!
It’s one thing to condemn the bad behavior. But, it’s very dishonest to blame everything on Hindus. These christian missionaries are no saints. If they are really honest about helping the poor, there are many poors within the christian community. Many christians in Mangalore area are alcoholics or uneducated. What are these missionaries doing?
29 August 2008 at 4:03 am
“Some rascally people equate anyone who speaks against the Bajrang Dal as ‘Anti-Hindu’.”
Some rascally people equate anyone who says the truth (with evidence and proofs) against the fragile and innocent minorities as hindu fundamentalists.
29 August 2008 at 4:17 am
The fight is not between Secularism and Communalism.
The fight is regarding the concept of Pseudosecularism.
Redefine the Constitution. It’s absolute “bull%^&*^%^”
Intended to divide the Indians.
It’s an irony that when India wins a Cricket match everybody rejoices.
The next day we have Thackarey,Dr Rajkumar fans arousing linguistic parochialism…. we immediately become kannadigas and marathis.
Post that VHP,SIMI,Akali Dal and the Church of conversion happens…we become hindus,,sikhs and christians..
It’s time that all these differences should be banned and we create a uniform practice.
Else we are here to destroy this country…..
Nobody wants to consider unemployment,poverty,educaton as the prime issues.
All challenges are emotional.
29 August 2008 at 4:43 am
Ashwini,
Or maybe you can go and live in a cave…
29 August 2008 at 7:50 am
so the conclusion..
You kill people in the name of Islam – Its Terrorism
You Kill people in the name of Christianity – Its Terrorism
You help poor tribes and give them education – Its Terrorism and you are Antinational
but
You kill people in the name of Hinduism – Its Pure Patriotism
hats off to you guys.
29 August 2008 at 8:41 am
>>CHENGAPPA,
Even though if we agree on the article which says that there is a possibility of Christian extremist groups involved in the murder of Swamiji, is that an excuse for burning people, schools ,churches and orphanages? Why can’t they ask for a legitimate investigation to the murder with the help of state police or CBI. (note Orissa is ruled by BJP). So there is no problem getting the help of state police.
Get a life man. do you still believe you constitute to a civilized society with these types of barbaric views.
29 August 2008 at 10:29 am
Gujarat riots happened after the godhra train was torched in which a large number of hindus were killed. Before this, Gujarat was peaceful.
Jammu started burning after the partisan attitude shown by the central and state governments towards kashmir and its muslims.
In orissa too, situation was peaceful till such time the killing of Swami happened.
Now do you see a common thread amongst all the incidents mentioned above???
The hindu groups reacted to a situation which was not their doing in the first place. So when reactions happen, people are more concerned about the effect of these reactions than finding out what caused these reactions in the first place.
You will not see a VHP or Bajrang Dal person going on to the street and picking up a fight with another person just for the heck of it. Right?? Even in J & K, inspite of the fact that lakhs and lakhs of pandits being driven away from their home land, the minority muslims continued to enjoy all protection.
If this is not the pinnacle of lop sided attitude of the people who are calling for ban on VHP & Bajrang Dal, then what is???
29 August 2008 at 10:44 am
KKR…..
When you stop being sarcastic and open your mind to see the things in the right perspective, you will realise what kind of foolish line of thought you have got!!!!
You say killing people in the name of islam should not be treated as terrorism… but why?
Some jihadis come and kill a professor at IISc for some percieved atrocity on some other muslim in some other part of the world. Isnt this terrorism???
Blasting bombs in busy areas killing hundreds of inncocents… isnt this terrorism?? What was the crime committed by these innocents???
I can go on and on… but then what is the point??? you and your ilk will always have a blinkered vision.
As I have pointed out in my earlier post, please understand that these hindu groups never start the attacks without any provocation. On the one hand you provoke people to react and when the react you cry foul…
True hallmark of a proved Sickularist!!!!
29 August 2008 at 11:18 am
People who murder innocent people in the name of any religion are the same. SIMI, xyz mujahideen, lashkar e xyz, VHP, Bajrang Dal, RSS, not sure which organized Christian group name etc.
Nothing special about any of them.
Also in this case, VHP types were off burning Christian orphanages and killing Christians. So wonder what the islamic terrorists have to do with this one?
29 August 2008 at 11:57 am
>> Chintaka,
I never said killing people in the name of Islam should not be traeted as Terrorism, what I say, Killing the people in the name of Hinduism (or whatever ideology ) should be treated as terrorism.
Get back to the point mate. open your mind atleast to justify your name.
29 August 2008 at 12:29 pm
The term ‘modern day colonialists’ is often bandied about regarding Evangelists. Harnessing the latent ill-will of most Indians against our British masters – something that has been programmed into us right from the days of our school history lessons – and equating that with Christians has never made sense to me.
For one, they are pumping in bible-belt-dollars into India, not shipping India’s kohinoors away to America or even the Vatican.
Secondly, almost every christian-institution i can think of operates in the community/social-sphere…some of them might make a profit but there is a social benefit along with that, and it is not a case of BigBadCorporation at work robbing-from-the-poor-and-giving-to-the-vault.
Thirdly, apart from an evangelising-agenda, and this is questionable as a blanket-accusation against Xians, they are largely apolitical. There is no HerMajesty foreign-policy being served by running schools,colleges,hospitals etc…
Neither is the Pope gaining anything by denouncing deaths and violence in Orissa…India and every other country releases statements in response to world events- congratulating, deploring, expressing sympathy etc. Just that here the PRO’s of the MEA do it.
That is no reason to stop looking at thier activities, but it is a reason to look past the B.S. whenever there are allegories made to Xians being Colonialists or the Pope intefering in Indian affairs. Its plain stupid.
29 August 2008 at 1:16 pm
When Lalu says we shouldn’t ban SIMI, which proudly claims that it is responsible for all the terror attacks in the country. We can make up the
commitment this govt has got against terrorism..
Pure Sickularists are at the power and they are responsible for all these current unrests.
My message to Sikcularis is first ban a proven terror camps such SIMI and then think of rest. Its known these guys wanna have the tag of secularists and appease the partiuclar community and play a vote bank politics.
Calling off schools for the day when a christian nun dies doesn’t send the good message. And i heard a missionary school princi claiming that they are peace lovers.
My question is, was there a peace when saraswati swamy died or was there peace when there were serial blasts in b’lore or if someone dies daily in J&K valley do you close your school daily.
Get a life you secularists
29 August 2008 at 3:06 pm
Here is one more hit list and hate campaign:
http://groups.google.com/group/JohnDayal/browse_thread/thread/13389056ed79ae45/fd03559c11195ce6
29 August 2008 at 3:51 pm
Bajrang Dal supporters are SUCKULARISTS, suckers who fall for hate ideology. Whoever kills, Loots, MUrders, PILLages and RAPES in the name of religon, needs to be kept in solitary confinement for life. Whether it is Islamic terrorism, or Hindu extremism of the Bajrang Dal kind – both are bad, proponents of both need to be pushed into the gutters, back to where they came from.
Whenever someone questions acts of violence and murder by Bajrang Dal, some rascals ask, “Where were these guys when the islamis militants did so-and-so, where were these guys when that group did that”, etc. etc. etc. I say this: Islamic militants are vermin and need to be crushed, but the Bajrang Dal is not a band of saints either. The sooner people understand this, the better.
29 August 2008 at 4:04 pm
Vinay & KKR….I pity you… for not seeing the writing on the wall….
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction… this third law of motion somehow did not hold true when it came to reactions from hindus earlier…
Today the entire north east has become a fiefdom of christians.. parts of kerala, bengal, UP and ofcourse kashmir has gone the muslim way. Did it happen overnight?? A carefully engineered conversion process aided it. And this conversion process is what the VHP is against.
For the Secularists who are the biggest suckers of them all, I have a question…. May be vinay and his ilk will answer this..
If you are doing social service, if you are really keen to see that the poor and downtrodden are being offered help in some way, do it by all means.. but why do you put the condition that they have to convert first??
Any answers????
29 August 2008 at 4:15 pm
Sandesh:
This is in response to your comment on 29 August 2008 at 4:03 am.
What exactly are you trying to say? Killing, burning alive, looting, rape, etc. are wonderful things? I do not say ‘anyone who says the truth against minorities with proof = fundamentalist’. I NEVER SAID THAT.
BUT, the Bajrang Dal is a rascally organization, full of people who satisfy the definition of rasaldom. That is what I am saying. The point of this article was just this: should such organizations be banned? And my answer/view is, YES.
29 August 2008 at 5:17 pm
@Secularists
I am not in support of Bajrang dal or missionary. All i want to tell you is -
Secularists must react with the same intensity as they react for Bajrang dal or VHP.
If they don’t, i doubt their secularism.
If they can’t have strong voie against SIMI or LeT and ban them.
Does it sound secularist to ban VHP or Bajrang dal.
If somebody says ..where was Ram and did he pass his engineering to construct bridge??? where were these secularists…and their secularism…
I dare them to make a same statement against to any other faith or religion…..
Dont live in dreams wake up
and understand the ground realities.
I AM NOT SPREADING HATRED…I AM SHARING THE TRUTH..
again… Secularists get a life
29 August 2008 at 6:32 pm
@Vinay and Sandesh,
You are shooting at the wrong target. You guyz get into biased views based on violence.
Equity in the society is defined by the State. State is bigger than individuals like you and me.
The State Craft in India has overlooked this concept and created banks of people separated on religious,linguistic,caste and regional bias.
Constitution needs to be junked else we will continue to debate violence between different sects.
We allow these religious master minds to flourish..
We have had terrorism from allmost all religions in this country.
Ban of Caste,Religion and Language is a must.
Else we will see only through this lens everytime
29 August 2008 at 7:08 pm
Basavaraj Vannur:
I react with the same goddamn ‘intensity’ no matter who it is, whether Hindu or Muslim, or anyone else. Let me tell you, I was once in Govindpura (Tannery Road) in Bangalore, and an India-Pak match was going on. I saw a shopkeeper watching the TV, and suddenly Saeed Anwar was out. The shopkeeper said something like ‘Shit, out ho gaya, abhi to haar gaye hum log‘. I told the shopkeeper, “Bhai Sahab, aapko Pakistan se itna hi pyaar hai to aap wahan kyon nahi chale jaate’? I am sure 99% of you people who call other ‘Sickularists’ and so on, would have quietly walked ahead. There goes your ‘dare’. I know very well, what sentiments some people hold, and what SIMI and other groups are doing. Very well. I protest against Islamic fundamentalists and Bajrang Dal equally vehemently.
And how do you know that I ‘do not protest as vehemently against SIMI’? What are you – some kind of thought police?
29 August 2008 at 7:25 pm
Basically the problems is that of excluvisivist religions versus inclusivist ones–Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Zoorastrianism, Jainsim are inclusive. The do not go around converting people nor do they believe that they alone have the absolute truth like the religions originating in Palestine, namely, Christianity, Judiasm and Islam, which believe they alone contain the truth and that others are in darkness.
Now many outcastes of Hinduism became Muslims and Christians over the course of history.
It is true missionaries prey on the poor–that is why they are missionaries and believe that only they can save people.
How about Hindus do more to help the oppressed people instead of alienating them–how about Hindus give to charities and thereby show by example to the missionaries that they are ready to help needy regardless of religion unlike Christian missionaries who only help Christians?
Only then will they be able to stop missionaries from preying on the poor and taking advantage of their ignorance.
I have seen many poor families educate their children through missionary funds–can the poor be blamed for this?
Perhaps Hindus need more of a social and civic consciousness if they are to combat missionaries.
29 August 2008 at 7:26 pm
What would have happened if there were fair number of much maligned, ‘brutes’, ‘rascals’, ‘goondas’, i.e., Bajrangis and VHPs in Kashmir in JANUARY 1990?
What do you think, then, would be the fate of 400000 Hindus langishing in tents, refugees in their own country? Do you thnk they would still be living in their own home?
What do you think?
Do you think it would help to have these ‘brutes’ around when the times comes, when the obvious ones come to your door to spread their seeds and take your life?
What do you think?
29 August 2008 at 8:16 pm
Tarlemaga:
Your views are utopian and idealistic. You are speaking of the ideal scenario you want. Do you really think you can ban caste, religion and language? After the breakup of the Soviet Union, the number of practicing Christians who came out into the open stunned political observers worldwide. 70 Years of state control which banned God could not rid people of their beliefs. Atheism needs to be voluntary. Trying to force it on people will create more problems.
Shyodha:
Listen, I do not want brutes around me if the obvious ones come to my door to kill me and spread their seed. I want the state machinery i.e. the Police, or the Army, etc. etc. to be able to protect me if at all such a day comes. Do you know why? Because there is absolutely no guarantee that the ‘Brutes who you think will protect me’ will not choose to vandalize me when they are through with ‘dealing with the obvious ones’.
29 August 2008 at 9:07 pm
Vinay:
This is in response to your comment on 29 August 2008 at 4:15 pm.
Killing, burning alive, looting, rape, etc. are wonderful things? I NEVER SAID THAT.
BUT, you should also first ban SIMI, the missionaries that killed the Swami first and then ask for a ban on BD and VHP. Do the people demanding ban on BD and VHP also demand a ban (and get the ban in action) of SIMI, the missionaries who forcibly convert, the CPIM activists in WB and Kerala and so on.
Look, killing of innocents is WRONG. I will admit it and demand the ban of any organization that indulges in such heinous activity. However, ignoring the cause and calling for punishing the effect is just ridiculous.
And kkr sir….. nimma maatu keLidre nagabeko aLbeko gottagolla ri. The very fact that there are thousands of Hindus who come out very strongly against BD, VHP and it’s activities are proof that Hindus don’t support radicalism. However, have you seen such a response from your muslim and christian friends? Why did the pope not condemn killing of swamy? Why did the schools run by chrisitians not shut down when the Swamy was killed ? HindugaLu enaadru mataaDbardu… bereyavru en maDli ella sahiskonDirbeku antana ??
29 August 2008 at 10:41 pm
Vinay,
Look at Turkey. It’s a secular nation inspite of Muslim Majority population. They junked the Khilafat movement while Jinnah was for it.
Ata Turk decided to give equal rights to all Citizens including Women.
He carved modern Turkey away from Fundamentalists.
Turkey is much ahead as a Nation. They deal with violence of any form with brute force. Kurds want a Nation, but they dealt it with the way they wanted.
Ata Turk had a vision for the Nation. I might be idealist in my views but we require visionaries for modern India.
Not violent mongrels who destroy our Nation.
India has become a Soft State because of the Constituion. It cannot handle its people where can it handle its enemies.
The pride of Indian thought and Philosophy needs to come out.
Nehruvian half baked pseudo secularism has left much to be desired.
Communists in India are Pseudo Communists.
Right Wing parties indulge in kicking each other …
29 August 2008 at 10:43 pm
I want to remind all its not just the Hindus,Muslims and Sikhs who are kicking each other.
The Baptist Church has been funding seccessionism in Nagaland since Independence.
Christian Terrorists are their in India as well.
George Bush is an International Christian Terrorist.
29 August 2008 at 10:53 pm
If every community comes out to criticise the bad within their community – we would have a better situation. Right now, most come out only in protest against the harm done to their own kind. And speak little when their own kind hurt others.
For that matter there seem to be more openess and freedom among Hindu community to criticise themselves. But that does not mean that VHP and Bajrang Dal are acceptable. As regards terrorists there is hardly any debate. No one can really come out justifying their choice to kill innocents. Now, if VHP and Bajrang Dal continue their deeds for some more time… we will stop debating. They will be taken for granted just like some other groups we have already judged. Eventually, its difficult to remember who started the fire. And thats what the original hard-liners want. Who were they?
29 August 2008 at 10:54 pm
Law and order, police, military, central government did not come to the aid of Indians who became refugees in their own country and lost their homes in Kashmir valley to barbarians; today they live in squalor of Delhi ignored by the rest of India. Refugees from Tibet live in a better condition than these Indians. Fact of the matteer is, Hindus can not rely on law of the land because of the selective secularism, double talking hyenas such as Suzanne Roy who attack the system when it tries to do the right thing.
Reaction of Hindus are always in defense. Actions of de-Hinduised Indians are always meant to attack and capture as they have been told by the new books they are taught to follow.
FYI:
Pictures of murder:
http://picasaweb.google.com/pravat.chandra/MurderOfSwamiLaxmanandaSaraswati
Maoists deny role in VHP leader’s murder:
http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/29/stories/2008082952080300.htm
29 August 2008 at 11:35 pm
agree with tarlemaga for most parts. in a village where the gowda is impotent, every patch of batta is fenced by paapaskaLLi. biblically, good fences make for good neighbours. until the village gowda tightens his own jeTTi, according to his on stated purpose of intent, i would not crib if somebody somebody fences his crop with paapaskaLLy. some jobs are dirty and un-brahminical/ashrafi/syrian in taste. but always, AND ALWAYS, the kakkas needs to be cleaned and managed.
and folks please stop these nonsense about caste. for all the school & institution closings i would like the catholic church to solve the issue of common mass even in bangalore forget that of a dalit bishop. should be fairly easy order for them, no? i would like them to stop asking for reservations. i would like muslims to address the ashraf and and ajlaf issues. how about ahamediyas? very indian idea that is. some random guy claims divinity. p- such people in india and suddenly, all strict scripture-walas and their grandfathers get antsy? and worst intelligencia cant find the balls to defend?
and please dnt give me fundas about schools and hospitals. christian schools and hospitals in bangalore charge a really pretty paisa and so do schools in chennarayapatna. infact the root of every thing that is wrong with education is in convent or imitative of that hindu/muslim education – for example donation. every single reform in health is due to tireless efforts of governement nurses like my dodamma and her hindu, christian and muslim colleagues from KA and KE. tirelessly for example, the small sample i have walked the villages and towns of hassan education women about fertility and ondu beku yeraDu saaku. and then they all graduated to fighting cataract in mysore district.
what is duplitious about the whole thing is on one side, the intelligencia rails against sanskritization of tribals, and yet is blind to latinization and urduization of the tribes. why is somebody calling themselves anand and worshping maariamma problematic and not somebody subjecting themselves to middle eastern norms in dressing, identification, language and culture and even parochial patriarchial norms? and why this insistence on partitioning hindu identity and over the top efforts at homogenizing non-hindu identity? does a byari from the coasts have anything in common with a lower plateau muslim from mysore or an upper plateau muslim from bidar even in karnataka? then why does the intelligencia land up in holenarsipura and instinctively assume that the local muslim is well versed in urdu forget daccani?
caste is an indian problem not just hindu. hindus have subjected themselves to the laws of the land with respect to caste. it is not completely solved, but hindus accept criticism and analysis of the problem. every politician bats citing ambedkar as the new manu. nobody can win elections or tenures in academia, intelligencia on brahminical ideals. and yet why is it politically kosher and halal to parade and narate the lowest common denominator ideals in islam and christianity?
the gowda needs to stand up.
29 August 2008 at 11:50 pm
Sandesh:
Ban every goddamn organization that indulges in violence, arson, murder loot and terrorist activities. Ban the SIMI, ban Lashkar-e-*, ban Bajrang Dal, ban every such group. What needs to be banned first and what needs to be banned second is a different thing. Ban all of them. My only point is this: I am a Hindu too, but I hate groups which go around burning, looting and raping. All Hindus should realize that such groups are more of a threat and are not a ‘good thing’. Forget the altruistic vision, even if you think materialistically, realize that such groups, if allowed to grow in power and influence, will one day turn their sights on us.
You might be targeted if you are rich, might be targeted if you drive a car, might be beaten half to death if you go shopping for Valentine cards (for example), might be burnt if you are a Brahmin (yes, it will happen one day if these groups are allowed to blossom).
Whatever action-reaction you talk about, this ‘reaction’ will get you, and all of us, if it continues this way.
30 August 2008 at 10:46 am
Its amazing that the police can find no law – old or new – to ban these people but are so effective on soft targets like discotheques and now I hear music in cars too. Just imagine how the softer targets – like the very poor feel – I have no idea of the issues they go through, but am sure it does not follow typical logic of law we expect? No wonder it is a matter of mis-placed self-esteem that more and more of us will join some group or the other to feel ’safer and stronger’ within the system.
30 August 2008 at 11:13 am
Maoists claim they killed ‘fascist’ VHP leader in Orissa
30 August 2008 at 11:48 am
T. Subba:
good points.
30 August 2008 at 12:37 pm
Vinay,
why are you always talk about rob, loot, rape and murder? do you want to institute terror in the hearts of people?
You are always talking about BD, VHP, Laskhar-e-toyiba, SIMI extreemists. Yes, they are estreemists.
But what about the psudo-naxalites, radicals who are converted to chirtianity and are killing hindus and muslims in Assam and other eastern states?
Who is giving funds for these naxalts and maoists, as the communism is almost cleaned off from the world?
isnt it the christian missionaries that are providing funds and weapons from Sri Lanka?
Yes, its true that christian missionaires are provinds money and weapons that they are a importing from srilanka and Nepal.
Tell me isnt it true.
You are always talking about hindu and muslim extreemists. Why dont you talk about christian extreemists?
Before America coalition invaded and robbed Iraq, there was 0.43% of christians in Iraq and even in Saddam’s rule, they were safe and enjoyed full freedom.
But once Saddam was executed unethicallly by the western countries, now the christian population in Iraq grew to 5.1%.
so, how come christianity spreading so quickly in a country, where its even difficult to come on to streets?
30 August 2008 at 4:21 pm
Aatmasakshi
Somehow I don’t believe that. Just a couple of days ago the maoists were saying they are not responsible. Why this flip-flop suddenly? Is it that christian missionaries poured some money to the coffers of maoists to own responsibility ?
30 August 2008 at 5:07 pm
thanks to congress and other so called secular parties, more and more hindus are forced to become communal and fundamentalists.more and more hindus are forced to join bhajrang dal because of this funny- type of secularism.in the long run, the minorities will be the losers because of this type of funny secularism.the only solution is to treat everybody as equals.
31 August 2008 at 1:07 pm
AATMASAKSHI, Naxals claimed it , may be for wrong reasons. If you go by a report published in the Kannadaprabha of Saturday the 30th the eyewitnesses (130 students) narrating the harrowing experiences as to what they witnsessd on Aug 24th around 7 pm. (Shauchaalayadalli aDagidda Swamojoge gunDu, p7) . Don’t try to divert the attention of the people.
31 August 2008 at 2:21 pm
The Parivar has been alleging from a very long time that Maoists are being funded by/through Christian organisations.
1 September 2008 at 9:18 pm
@Manju Pai,
You are the first person that I have come across who has taken up against Pseudo Secularism.
This is the root cause. In our country every Citizen needs to be treated equally.
We find that either Language,Religion,Caste and Economic Barriers are the norms of treating an individual.
Unfortunately Secularism is not defined but Pseudo Secularism is defined in our Country.
Everyone shies away from it.
3 September 2008 at 7:46 pm
Iam giving a view on the below points
1) Accusing someone without proof.
2) Supporting organisations such as the VHP RSS and Bajrang Dal.
3) Rumours of Christians attacking Hindus.
4) The Graham Staines and his sons burning and aftermath.
5) Conversions. Hindu to Christian and Christian to Hindu.
6) Pasting links to various websites to justify themselves.
7) Who are the people to be actually caught and punished.
1)Accusing a community without any proof and then going and killing, raping and burning them is a very dangerous move. At this rate tomorrow, if any member from a community dies, rumours can be spread and your killing would be justified.
2)How can anyone support the killings, rape and murders committed by the VHP, RSS, and Bajrang Dal. It is surprising that people are justifying their actions and supporting these organisations.
They are just a front for the BJP to come to power. The party which has gained popularity after the Babri Masjid demolition.
No Hindu or temple has been attacked by Christians, but look at the number of churches destroyed and Christians burned alive.
3)Rumours are being spread that Christians have killed the Swami Laxmanand, even though Maoist and Naxals were the culprits.
Rumours are being spread that Christians are killing Hindus.
Christians have never been involved in communal riots. Even when Graham Staines and his sons were burned alive, the Christians did not retaliate.
4)Rumours are being spread that Christians have killed the Swami Laxmanand .
Dont accuse Christians of murder without proof.
But everyone knows that it was a Hindu who burned Graham Staines and his sons alive in Orissa in 1999.
When Graham Staines and his sons were burned alive , were any Hindus killed in retaliation.
Not a single Hindu or temple was attacked. Only protests were held and the culprit was caught.
Get proof and punish the guilty person. Spreading hatred and killing innocent people is not the solution.
5)Everyone accuses Christians of conversion.
Visit ISKCON, Sathya Sai Baba ashram,Mata Amritananda ashram,Ravi Shankar ashram and various world famous Hindu priests places, you would find so many foreigners and Indians who were Christians and have converted to Hinduism.
They have liked the people and the message being taught over there and converted to Hinduism. Similarly if a Hindu likes the Christian message he is free to convert.
Charges of forced conversion of Christians in ashrams can be levied on others as well, but we dont make this an issue, since Jesus taught to live in peace with everyone, love your neighbours as yourself and, to forgive ones enemies and have love for GOD. Learn to live in peace with everyone.
6)People have pasted links to various websites, to prove their points. To counter that even I can mention that in any popular search engine website you type “attacks on Christians in India” and you will get hundreds of websites showing attacks on Christian institutions and murders of Christians.
7)Whichever individual indulges in violence riots and murder should be punished, whether Hindu, Muslim, Christian or any other religion. Catch the culprit and punish him, but do not destroy properties and kill innocent people who have never done you any harm.
4 September 2008 at 4:35 am
A person can convert to whatever religion she/he wants. Whatever they feel is better for any reason.
Anyway trying to ’stop’ someone from converting to another religion is just an oppressor.
Looks like some hindus want to oppress dalits and others ‘lower’ castes for eternity.
But for how long?
9 September 2008 at 5:32 pm
You can convert something to something else, for example a dining room can be converted into a parlour or some other facility. However, I fail to understand how can a person be converted! For example: can Mr A or Ms B be converted to Communism or atheism or Islam or Christianity? In all these cases supposing Mr A adopts Christianity can it be said that the act of conversion was effected by a ritual, or by an extraneous person forcing him to change his religious belief? If so how will he continue to be Christian? Will that magical ritual or the Forceful Person “who converts him” remain with the Convert holding a knife of threat or a carrot of incentive for the rest of his life? What does an additional number to the fold of Christianity for example, help Christianity? Is there a reward for increase in the membership? Who awards such a reward to the Converter?
The theology I have learned and many years of reading and serving the Church a priest has taught me that conversion by force is a reprehensible act and an immoral act. I would condemn such a person who uses incentive or force to make another person renounce his religion or faith as a criminal like any terrorist. He must be dealt so by the law of the land.
The Bible that I have read many times over does not speak of a Christianity. What Christ did was to gather a group of disciples and teach them about the Kingdom of God which is to be established. It was a dream that he proposed. It was a movement that he inaugurated. But alas what we have now is a variety of Churches and its institutions.
Christ did not establish a religion. Christ’s dream of the Kingdom of God was nothing but God being Father of all and all of us being Children of God and thus brothers and sisters in one family (not at all one religion). That kingdom is where God’s justice will rule, it was a kingdom of brotherhood, it is a kingdom of peace and love. You and I could be part of that kingdom while you practise Islam, Hinduism, Jainism, Atheism or any ism and I holding on to Christianity.
Who doesn’t want peace, love, justice and brotherhood? Even those who doe not believe in God seek these very values. No one can convert anyone to peace. Hitler lived a life a hatred and who could have forced him to peace, love, justice and brotherhood?
I remember my childhood days when Josif Stalin was Russian Dictator. He himself was a student of Catholic Priesthood. But he accepted Communism and atheism as his philosophy. The entire Catholic Church was asked for the conversion of Stalin and of Russia. I did so as a boy as the Church instructed me. But today if you ask me I would say, it was a mistake on the part of the Church even to pray for the conversion (not by force or allurement – who could force Stalin?) but by change of heart. Because he and the Russian people had a mind of their own.
The people of Orissa, tribal or poor have a mind of their own. Who could force them.
However, they like anyone else have a right to hear the good news of the Kingdom of God. Please allow them the freedom. It is a free country. I am free to talk, you are free to talk. I am free to reject what you talk to me and you are free to reject what I talk to you. None has a right to kill because of what you or I speak. But if one day you wish to change your heart from cruelty, massacre, rape of the weak, then I welcome that conversion. But don’t you ever imagine I will have the stupidity to impose a Christian name on you. Or perform a ritual on you.
By the way, are not the Sangh Parivaar members saying that they are pussillanimous and cowardly. Yes they are because the strength of the majority lies in its generosity not in brute force on the weak. Be brotherly, let us all live together as God’s children.
Augustine Kuriapilly
12 September 2008 at 3:19 pm
down with converstion
!!
stop these pseudo secularists !!
save INDIA !!
16 September 2008 at 11:37 am
We should not ban VHP Bajarang dal, these organistion are found to save the hindu religion they are serving our religion if the christian dont put stop to the conversion vhp/bajarangdal should attack church
iam not a member of any organistion but i love my religion
17 September 2008 at 5:44 am
Its cool man …Ban RSS/VHP everything related to Hinduism. and make tax free country for christians and Islam. I am tired of this crap …this is all because of Gandhi, who preached non violence and licking the minorities ….god damn …stop this crap and let me live my life …
17 September 2008 at 10:44 am
Need not ban Bajrang Dal and VHP, but if they show intollerance towards other minority communities, India will face the same cricis as Pakistan is facing now. These organisations are spoiling Hinduism. They sould win the hearts of majority community by serving that community and not by terrorising minorities. If BJP, VHP, Bajrang Dal chooses the fanatic hard line, then the days are not far away when we need to re-draw the boundaries of India. We have almost lost Kashmir because of instigation from hardliners. We should not ingnore the fact that Amarnath is well within the reach of a missil from Pakistan. Then what are we trying to build in Amarnath by dividing people? India can not exist independently on planet. If gulf countires stop supporting oil, you are perished. If multinationals withdraw from India we are doomed. Don’t make the life of Indians living abroad miserable. If they all are made to return back to India because they are Hindus, our country will not be even able to feed these millions of people. We oppose churches and conversions in India. What about hundreds of Hindu temples come up outside India and foreigners embraning Hinduism? If our Hindu brotheren is attacked and killed and property damaged in such countries, what answer would VHP and Bajrangdal have?
The fact is minorities felt threatened and some joined terrorist outfits, after demolishion of structure at Ayodya and Gujrat riots. The effect is sereal bomb blasts and attack on strategic institutions in the past couple of years. This is the gift VHP and Bajrangdal has given to thier mother land due to their hardline approach. If BJP encourages such hardline approach we can expect much more severe attacks in future. No POTA can save this country. If US could not protect Pentagon and World Trade Centre, what are we trying to prove by enacting new laws to curb terrorism. No law can prevent terrorism. On the other hand, a soft, compassionate approach from the majority community will kill the seed of anger sawn among minority communities. If Al Quyda can attack US, then nothing is safe in India. Better act soon before it is too late…
20 September 2008 at 1:40 am
OR..OR..just sit by and read such blogs and write comments on who should be banned and who shouldn’t. seriously folks even if any such dramatic change were to occur it woudl be eons and we wouldn’t live to see such a age. we can ban all we want but is that going to have any bottomline impact, in other words, woudl that decrease communal violence and clashes. NO imho
20 September 2008 at 1:22 pm
Politics and Religion shouldn’t be mixed . If this is stopped than everything will be alrite
20 September 2008 at 2:06 pm
Not at all
24 September 2008 at 11:02 pm
Religion is the opiate of the masses. Why fight. Don t take opium. Drink Beer instead. Banning any organization is not going to help. Stricter unbiased police action will help. Also compulsory military enlisment for every youth after 18 years of age will surely breakdown barriers.
27 September 2008 at 12:44 pm
Yes! Please the links below for the reason why I support the ban.
–> RSS aims for a Hindu nation: The RSS is the ideological fountainhead of various Hindu groups including India’s governing Bharatiya Janata Party.
–> The VHP “is committed to the Hindutva principal that ‘to be Indian is to be Hindu.’ They promote the concept of India becoming a totally Hindu nation and driving out Christianity and Islam.”
–> Emphasizing historical oppression of Hindus by invading forces like the Muslims and the Christians, the VHP call to “reverse” the influence resulting from these intrusions.
–> The RSS has created a range of affiliated organizations in India called the ‘Sangh parivar’ or the RSS ‘family’, which include the VHP, Bajrang Dal, BJP, etc.
–> The Jana Sangha was formed in 1951 as the political wing of the RSS. It was later replaced by BJP in 1980.
–> Most of the top leadership of the BJP has emerged from the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS, or National Volunteers Society):
–> India’s tribal schools are questioned – Teaching promotes bigotry, fanaticism, rights groups say Indian diaspora funding Hindu extremism. It is now no secret that the Sangh Parivar, the collective name given to the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), the Bajrang Dal and other Hindu extremist organizations, is exploiting religion (Hindutva) to foment communal violence in India.
–> India: where Christians are a target for the religious murder mobs
–> News on Christian persecution and Dalit atrocities in India
–> The RSS has long been involved and implicated in anti-minority violence and hatred
–> A catalogue of crimes by the VHP, BJP, RSS, Bajrang Dal and Sangh Parivar
–> Christians and Muslims under attack in Punjab. Ever since the Badal-BJP government came to power early this year in the Panjab, the Christians have borne the communal wrath of this right wing Hindu combine.
–> Does RSS have any moral standards?
–> 2007 most violent ever for Christians since Independence
–> Murder, Rape, Arson Continue in India
–> Christian Converts Treated as Criminals in India and and HINDU FUNDAMENTALISM: ROOT CAUSE OF COMMUNAL VIOLENCE IN INDIA
–> Hindutva —Terrorism’s New Signature
–> Holding the centre – In 1947, as now, Indian democracy was being challenged and threatened from radicals of Left and Right. Back then, in the late Forties, the Centre held. The RSS was forced to agree to abide by the Constitution, and the communists were forced overground. But will the Centre hold now, asks Ramachandra Guha.
–> RSS – the rise of Indian fascism
–> Hindu Nationalism and Orissa: Minorities as Other – The RSS continues its meetings in the Hindu hamlets regularly since the incident. These meetings are not publicised, they spread through word of mouth.
–> Highly educated but notorious for their orthodoxy and frugality, these unnaturally fair-skinned Brahmins occupy the highest rungs of the caste ladder in Marathi society. Indeed Savarkar, the father of Hindutva was also a KoBra…..The RSS is an organisation full of contradictions. On the exterior it seems to embrace modernity yet is deeply resentful of it. It claims to work towards uplifting the Dalits yet it draws most of its membership from notoriously casteist communitites. It claims to be apolitical cultural organisation yet it has irrevocably altered the political landscape of India. (as they are playfully abbreviated).
–> Beyond Controversy: Christian Mission and Communal Religious Violence in Contemporary India – UNDERSTANDING MUSLIMS-HINDU VIOLENCE IN INDIA
–> Common definitions – Look up BJP, Dalit, etc
–> Biggest Enemies of Hindus: A Hinduvta vision (a hindutva website on all the people Hindus should hate)
–> Letter to a Progressive Hindu – The re-election of Narendra Modi five years after the Gujarat pogrom signals that it is time for a progressive Hindu movement to reclaim the religion as one that is progressive, tolerant and secular humanistic.
–> ‘Sangh Parivar is destroying Hindu civilisation’
–> Hindu fundamentalism — why we are concerned. A campaign to stop funding hate
–>Baba Budangiri: Successful Resistance to Saffronization (Saffronization of South India)
–> Hate in India
–> State-Sponsored Terrorism in the Republic of India
–> India – International Religious Freedom Report – Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
….I’m tired of adding more links. Religion really is the opiate of the masses. Until we all see each other as humans first, this mindless violence on religion will continue. Tolerance to all – tolerance even to the intolerant as long at they don’t take away your fundamental freedoms. Humanity First – not religion, not Christianity, not Hinduism, not Islam, not Communism, not Capitalism, not Totalitarianism, but simply Humanity!! Look at the human being first and his suffering!!
1 October 2008 at 8:01 am
Advocating ban on a religion is not what Christianity would like to say to the Government. Only a humble request to protect the citizens from marauding crowds which in no sense can represent an ancient religion like Hinduism. What Christians would and should do is to forgive. Jesus forgave his killers and plotters from the very cross in his greatest agony. I adopt his words to address a prayer to God the Father of all humanity : “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”
Raping a woman consecrated to God would not be part of any religion. How do those who perpetrated the crime face their mothers and sisters. The raped woman preferred to be addressed “Sister”, allowing herself to be a sister even to the criminal elements who raped her.
There was another Sister whom people called Mother Teresa, though she herself always signed her name Sr. Theresa in official documents. India and the world made much of her and called her a saint. I am afraid before the lust of these people who commit such crimes would Mother Teresa have been safe?
10 October 2008 at 3:17 pm
Hey Guys,
Today Congress is Planing to Ban Bajarang Dal if we keep quite they will ban VHP then RSS then BJP Then they will Ban the term Hindu he country…..
Some one was saying RSS Aiming for Hindu nation whats wrong in that?
You know 80%of muslims in India are converted & 100% christians… Read the history written by historian(true historians) not Communists or Congress historians….
As they converted our Hindu’s whenever they were strong now whats wrong if we want them to come back and form a Strong Hindu nation..
Other wise you can see now For few religions Country is not having any importance.. they refused to sing Vande Mataram Which played major role in India’s freedom … The same Congress party taken back the decision to make VandeMataram Compulsory in schools….
When our politicians wants only one(hindu ) religion to be petriots then why don we make all others Hindus(petriots..)
During 1989-1991 4lac Hindus killed in Kashmir did any body spoke about it . maximum of 1000 muslims killed in Gujrat thts the big issue they burnt hindus alive everyone forgetting that..
There is no value for Hindu lives?? Our congress & communists get awake only when Christians or muslims attacked? Is our Parliament is not having any value some one who attacked is still alive…..
….. Jai Hind(u)….
11 October 2008 at 12:29 am
It’s normal to react to provocation. Abnormal, not to.
Civilized people can react violently also, if they find that normal levers of correction have failed to function…time and again.
Folks abusing Hindu organizations don’t know they have been damn lucky. This, today’s violent reaction will prevent a catastrophe tomorrow. If Hindus are forced to shut up today, tomorrow they will explode and destroy everything in sight.
Take bomb making for instance…something that exercises and scares the shit out of our minorities today. The Hindu never went this far before. Why is he doing it today? Hindu bomb making will send a corrective message to the older experts…to either end their bombs or face disaster. That disaster can even be civil war. No amount of sermonizing and guilt tripping will make the Hindu shy away from violence any more.
Folks like to speak of caste oppression leading to conversions etc. Have they calculated the number of Dalits and OBC members of the Hindu Right? They might be surprised or jolted out of their slumber. The Upper Caste folks…largely, have no stomach for physical violence…they too will soon learn to cope.
Resorting to violence as defense, is very natural. Please don’t forget that. In a fair society, the State owns that responsibility on behalf of the victimized…in a lopsided society, the victimized, make their own decisions.
Hindus reacting this way…only proves that we have a chance to survive as Hindus. We are a live people.
Water…in the end…finds its own level.
11 October 2008 at 1:50 pm
@Palahalli,
So you would like us to believe the violence on dalits who converted to christianity was an act of defense? Defense against what?
The people inflicting the violence (the Bajrangi types – they may belong to any caste but usually those who are economically well off in comparison to others – and they may be classified as OBCs or whatever for reservation purposes) – arent being victimized by anyone. They are doing the victimizing.
Reacting by violence against the defenseless seems to be a great way to prove we are a live people.
Of course if you believe random violence is the solution to problems and will lead to solutions, stoke it up.
11 October 2008 at 9:36 pm
AG:
I have never spoken of “defense”. I said “reaction to provocation”.
So, BD members are now “well off”? All of them? Dalits…and OBCs? and Upper Castes? I see.
And quite obviously, they cannot be victimized. Good for them.
Defenseless people suffer during times of conflict. I certainly hope the Church wakes to this fact.
On violence..like I said earlier, it follows it’s own logic. Let this conflict lead to sense and peace.
12 October 2008 at 1:32 am
Palahalli,
You said:
“Resorting to violence as defense, is very natural. ” Read you previous post.
hence my rant.
But if you insist you didnt say that – no problem, we can let it be.
I dont see how this type of conflict can lead to any sort of peace since it is not one where one tribe is going to wipe out the other and claim victory. In the worst case it could lead to middle east type scenarios with drawn out civil strife. Would be sad indeed if the situation gets worse and adds to our country problems (as if we dont have enough).
Anyway – like you said, lets wait and watch.
12 October 2008 at 6:50 pm
Thanks for correcting me. I did use the “defense” word. However, that doesn’t change the import of what I’m saying.
Who says a conflict must end in “wiping out” the opponent? Why should Hindus allow themselves to be scared out of taking action?
The situation needs correction. If this crude manner of correcting leads to greater sense and craving for peace amongst the evangelists, so be it.
14 October 2008 at 7:55 pm
Do we have to believe in a religion??
And if we are born in a religion,do we have to be bound by the rules framed by that religion??
And i don’t see anything wrong in conversions
Religion, isn’t it just a belief??
As a matter of fact, i don’t believe in any religion but in humanity
18 October 2008 at 3:50 pm
I wrote a couple of responses thinking that there are reasonable people out there with open mind. What comes off all these reaction is a general sense of virulant attack. Reason or love does not find room here. I resign.
19 January 2009 at 7:27 am
Hey Sandeep,
Who is ‘we’ and who is ‘them’, and does your ‘we’ own the ‘them’ like property that they should be forced to do the bidding of your ‘we’ just because your ‘we’ has single handedly decided what needs to be the shape of things. Being a Hindu is not about being part of a mindless herd to be pushed whichever direction by an orthodoxy proclaiming themselves to be the protectors. This is a totalitarian mindset that continually finds new ‘them’ when the existing ‘them’ are overcome. Step out of line on one idea that the orthodoxy wants to push you could become ‘them’ from ‘we’ so fast you won’t know what has hit you.
You have an issue with the lopsided and selective accommodation of Islamic religious theocracy in the Constitution under the bogus banner of secularism, the nuisance of aggressive proselytization, then speak to that in a way that addresses that issue. Do not use these things to rationalize bad deeds of who you call ‘we’ which some others too have been trying to justify in this thread with this equal and opposite reaction to action line. Nothing equal and opposite about going on a rampage to bully and harrass those least able to resist as an excuse for avenging an action some other individuals committed.
19 January 2009 at 12:06 pm
Unar – When there is an action, there is reaction. Moralising about it being “good” or “bad” is useless.
If You don’t like this reaction, then I suggest you speak to the folks who invite it in the first place.