“A lie repeated many times becomes the Truth” in the modern age sans any media scrutiny.
So, it follows that milk and honey, and power and water flow in Gujarat because of Narendra Damodardas Modi. So, it follows that “growth” and “development” have sky-rocketed in the State, because of Narendra Damodardas Modi. And so it follows that India Inc wants Narendra Damodardas Modi to be the next prime minister and so on.
And woe unto those who question or disagree. Plague upon them.
Really?
The sociologist Dipankar Gupta doesn’t agree. Gujarat was already among the top three in the country within 30 years of being created, he writes in today’s Times of India. Over 35% of its infrastructural augmentation for power generation happened between 1995 and 2000, before Narendra Damodardas Modi came to power.
“Gujarat grew at approximately 12 per cent in 2006-07 against India’s overall growth of about 8 per cent that year. Fantastic, said Montek Singh Ahluwalia, and lauded Gujarat’s achievement…. But wait! What is so great about this statistic?
“In 1994-95, Gujarat surged at the rate of 13.2 per cent. Where was Modi then? In the years between 1994 and 2001, Gujarat’s state domestic product registered a growth average of 10-13 per cent. At the tail end of this period Modi stepped in as chief minister….
“[W]hat is so dazzling about Gujarat’s current prosperity? Nothing really.
“In spite of decades of growth as usual, as much as 93 per cent of Gujarat’s workforce toils in the informal sector. This is why growth is not always development. In fact, on the Human Development Index, Gujarat fell one place in 2003-04, and now ranks below Kerala, Punjab, Tamil Nadu, Maharashtra and Karnataka. In terms of rural prosperity Gujarat is at number five and well behind Punjab, the front ranker…. Workers employed under the National Rural Employment Guarantee Scheme in Gujarat receive half of what their counterparts get elsewhere.
“Ernst & Young, consultants for the 2005 Vibrant Gujarat conclave, ranked Gujarat’s investment climate behind that of Kerala, Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu, and on par with Karnataka’s. In terms of Workforce Quality, however, the same professionals gave Gujarat a very average “B grade” as it failed to measure up on a number of counts.”
Read the full article: The credit’s misplaced
Tags: Churumuri, Dipankar Gupta, Ernst & Young, HDI, Joseph Goebbels, Montek Singh Ahluwalia, Narendra Damodardas Modi, Narendra Modi, Sans Serif, The Times of India, Vibrnt Gujarat
31 January 2009 at 12:51 pm
It’s election time! We will see more and more of such politically sponsored programs, articles, demonstrations etc as we get closer to the Big Day. I have never stopped wondering why people keep trying the same stunts time and again, imagining that they will fetch them votes, only to be surprised by the aam admi, the one who actually experiences it all!
31 January 2009 at 1:17 pm
Look, who’s looking for the next Padmashri?
31 January 2009 at 1:36 pm
I fail to understand why Churumuri loves to take anti Modi stand!!!! Sir kindly note that ” there were also prosperous states with better growth pattern during the same time”, but pls consider the current growth as well.
Nowhere Mr. Modi has told it was during his leadership ONLY the state has grown.
Also pls note that Year on Year ( YOY ) growth is always compounding. If in 1994 the growth was 10 Rs, a growth of 13% will be 11.3 Rs. Kindly take time to calculate the current Growth in terms of the actual numbers, probably it will be an eye opener.
Also kindly look at our own Karnataka, the growth we had during SM Krishna govt fizzled out when the he lost the elections!!!! Maintaining the YOY growth is equally tough.
Hopefully Mr Gupta & his supporters like you understand the same.
31 January 2009 at 1:49 pm
D Gupta disgusts me no end.
The hooker on the street has more intellectual honesty. She is at least true to herself and her trade.
31 January 2009 at 2:15 pm
“A lie repeated many times becomes the Truth” in the modern age sans any media scrutiny.
Exactly. Arundhati Roy started a fictitious incident of horror that got repeated everywhere…..
31 January 2009 at 5:11 pm
The angry left will say anything to win its silly arguments!
I totally disgaree with the views expressed in his column by Dipankar Gupta, who clearly comes across as a typical JNU leftist.
The selective use of only such data that helps his arguments, combined with some factual errors, indicates the extent to which the angry left is willing to go in the pursuit of a single-point agenda aimed at targeting Narendra Modi.
Anyone who has been a regular visit to Gujarat will tell you how different, in a much better way, that state is from a decade ago, and how every year one can observe progression there — in terms of improved infrastructure, better business environment, and superior governance.
Even if one were to accept for argument sake that Gujarat has always been a better state, the fact that Mr Modi has been able to sustain that edge during his tenure is praiseworthy. Especially when one looks at the dismal record of RJD’s Lalu Yadav in Bihar, DMK’s Karunanidhi in Tamil Nadu or even the left wing’s CPI (M) in West Bengal.
Thanks to Narendra Modi, today every village in Gujarat has 24×7 electricity. Yes, 24×7 power! Even Delhi does not have that.
I rest my case.
31 January 2009 at 5:38 pm
it ultimately proves the point, it was BJP led govt that was in power from 1994 onward, Modi probably was some minister in those govts…it shows to what length they can go hunting Modi
31 January 2009 at 6:02 pm
Tell those JNU-wallahs to stick on to writing about the times when we weren’t born, how do I corroborate those claims in their writings?
Why was Narendra Modi delegated to head Gujarat? Why was he made to replace Keshubhai Patel?
Before that we used to see him briefing the press on news channels in front of snowy locales of Himachal Pradesh.
Why was congress voted out of Gujarat, was it because of the religious disharmony cultured by the Sangh Parivar or was it their governance?
Again tell these spin-doctors to try convince me why should I vote for the leadership of Rahul or Sonia Gandhi or Mayawati.
31 January 2009 at 7:33 pm
What’s with the anti-BJP reporting emphasis? I’m not defending any of saffron brigade, they’re all a bunch of scumbags, but so is everybody else and everybody knows this. Let’s move on please.
31 January 2009 at 9:22 pm
1. Growing @13%, when your GDP is 100 Units is completely different story than Growing @12% when the GDP is 200 Units.
2. Gujarat is not as fertile a land as Punjab – most of it is barren. Modi’s initiative made the agricultural output turn many time over.Considering the topography – its an achievement to be ranked 5 at rural prosperity.
3. Given the same economic situation – getting business to invest in billions in Gujarat is also a testimony to Modi’s governance.
Well – why am I preaching to this “sour grapes’????
31 January 2009 at 11:51 pm
Instead of being laughed off, it seems that the impromptu election pitch of the titans of India’s industry is being fought on the grounds of meaningless statistics and meandering editorials.
here’s the thing.
There is NO WAY, Modi is going to be anything more than CM of Gujarat. That is because it is not possible, in the age of coalition, for a single person to try and campaign his or her way to the PM’s post. The selection of PM is still dependent on closed doors and coteries. If anything, putting forth a PM candidate is sometimes counter-productive as Mrs. Sonia Gandhi found out sometime back.
Additionally, Modi has hardly ever involved himself in national politics. He has not managed campaigns or been in the inner circle of the BJP. Not the best way to barge your way through to a PM’s post for the best of candidates.
Lastly, India’s national elections have effectively become 28 state elections held at the same time.
There are no national issues any more. Caste, religious, linguistic and ethnic boundaries have ensured that it is highly unlikely, bar something utterly improbable, for one issue to dominate the elections.
Much as the BJP would like to believe “security” is an issue, the fact of the matter is, it is not. Voters will still make their choices on RKMBSP issues, and it is hardly likely that too many people outside those with access to mass media are likely to be swayed by Modi’s “track record” (whatever it may be) in this front.
1 February 2009 at 2:21 am
Conventional wisdom can be challenged by serious reserach work. But, it has to be done by experts- not by sociologists questioning economics as in this case. Dipankar Gupta is a sociologist of first order. According to me, he is finest after Mysore’s very own MN Srinivas. But his expertise doesn’t include economics, data, methods, analysis.
There are serious reserach now available that questions accepted facts:
Green Revolution in India- new reserach says, roots of green revolution in India was laid much before.
CPIM’s claim on land reformation in West Bengal and rising consumption level of rural poor- Its seriously challenged now.
Regan era was instrumental in decline of USSR- new reserach says, decline of USSR started much before.
Bibek Debroy, an eminent economist, conducted most detailed survey ever undertaken in India on behalf of Rajiv Gandhi foundation. He put GUJARAT AS #1 STATE, and preferred to regin instead of withdrawing the report as was demanded by Sonia.
Importance of Modi is unique in history. He is THE ONLY LEADER IN INDIA who could make successful fusion between ideology and development. Congress has no ideology. Communists failed (look at Nandigram, Singur) fusing the two.
Its Modi alone who could fuse these two, thus brought Hindutva to a newer height. Its an achievement of tallest order.
A section of press, fundoos particularly jnu-types abused him so much for so little, now even if serious work (Gupta’s work does not belong to this category) were to question Modi’s economic ahivement, it will fail in public opinion.
Another notable achievement of Modi is he reinvented himself even after so much of biased press. I have no doubt India will reach heights when Modi leads India as PM. I believe, like Meghnad Desai- Modi will become PM of India after Advani.
1 February 2009 at 5:08 am
““A lie repeated many times becomes the Truth” in the modern age sans any media scrutiny.”
Lies repeated many times by media and psecs:
Pogrom
Genocide
Mass Murder
Communal
Hater
His success is all propaganda..
What happens? Modi gets Re-Elected again and again.
The lies dont stick. People are smart. They can get thru Dipankars and churumuris smoke screens.
1 February 2009 at 8:49 am
gupta is a duffer. gujarat is growing well despite the plague and the post godhra incidents which is not possible for other states
1 February 2009 at 5:19 pm
extending the same logic
……”India was in its suvarnayuga during the times of Chandragupta Maurya”…..so the independence/ congress party did not add anything to the development!
1 February 2009 at 9:28 pm
Congress has added so many things…a party which had absolute majority had to share power with others…now it is struggling to survive…for everything highcommand…..even for breathing….people elect the government they want…whether Churumuri wages antiBJP war or otherwise. Let Gujarat decide about its fate.
2 February 2009 at 3:57 am
I am curious to know communits are ruling WB for over thirty years and why is that state is sliding into poverty and backwardness year after year? Why don’t these media people highlight communism’s failure? Gujrat is growing rapidly because of free enterprise, less of labor union strikes, freedom to choose one’s occupation which are suppresed in WB.
2 February 2009 at 7:55 am
Why don’t lefties give credit where it is due? Does Mr.Dipankar Gupta think that recent memory of the public about Gujarat’s progress can be wiped out in the same manner in which Marxist historians wipe out history of distant past. Get out of that habit. Everyone, and at least Gujaratis know what Gujarat was under Keshubhai Patels and Madhav Sinh solankis and their likes. Narendra Modi has been recognised as an achiever par excellence, even by his antagonists. Only the marxists want to bury their head in sand! Does he think that Kerala and West Bengal are more vibrant than Gujarat?!
2 February 2009 at 9:14 am
I am the White skinned person who ordered you and your fellow journalists in India to obey the White skinned man’s idea that the 312 dead Hindus in Gujarat should be added to the 700 dead Muslims and the total should be doubled so that the number of dead Muslims is projected as 2000 while the number of dead Hindus is projected as ZERO. You have been very obedient. Many of your friends have been awarded the Padma award for spreading a conspiracy theory.
You yourself have been very loyal to White people like me and are one of the most obedient servants. When I told you to claim that the fire was the result of Hindus raping a Muslim girl, you followed orders. When I changed the story to the fire being an accident, you were obedient again! Don’t worry, you too will get rewarded soon. Just make sure you keep the Teesta bribery episode under wraps.
5 February 2009 at 2:14 pm
Churumuri,
God Bless you for this post!!!
It feels so GOOD to be CORRECT!!!
This is just the latest substantiation of what I have been saying for ages on the blogosphere & in my posts.
The right-wingers here will say anything to defend their campaign of lies.
Those interested in the TRUTH may want to sample:
1. http://1conoclast.blogspot.com/2009/01/the TRUTH about gujarat’s “development”
2. the truth-seems to be pouring out!!!
3. purely-random-thoughts
4. questions for ratan, sunil & anil
5. is this not development too?
& the classics:
6. so is the bjp good for anything at all??
7. a few questions for vinodji his friends
7 February 2009 at 12:20 am
Modi is God of development.
Whether our MS Swaminathan, or legendary Lee Kuan Yew…..to Mahashewta Devi…Davos honchos—-ALL have praised development undertaken by Modi/
Those who deny this are bunch of looney assorted Jehadis, Islamists, Communists and communal Psuedo seculatists in India.
To question development under Modi is extreme example of communalism.
10 February 2009 at 8:15 pm
Left-wing radicals will say anything to win their silly arguments!
I totally disgaree with the views expressed in his column by Dipankar Gupta, who clearly comes across as a typical JNU leftist.
The selective use of only such data that helps his arguments, combined with some factual errors, indicates the extent to which the angry left is willing to go in the pursuit of a single-point agenda aimed at targeting Narendra Modi.
Anyone who has been a regular visit to Gujarat will tell you how different, in a much better way, that state is from a decade ago, and how every year one can observe progression there — in terms of improved infrastructure, better business environment, and superior governance.
Even if one were to accept for argument sake that Gujarat has always been a better state, the fact that Mr Modi has been able to sustain that edge during his tenure is praiseworthy. Especially when one looks at the dismal record of RJD’s Lalu Yadav in Bihar, DMK’s Karunanidhi in Tamil Nadu or even the left wing’s CPI (M) in West Bengal.
Thanks to Narendra Modi, today every village in Gujarat has 24×7 electricity. Yes, 24×7 power! Even Delhi does not have that.
I rest my case.
24 February 2009 at 5:27 pm
tathagata…
That’s 2 bigots I know with the same name! ;-)
____________
babu bajrangi… oops! I mean babban banarsi…
Churumuri has given a news article link to support what he is saying.
Do you have even one link to support the ludicrous 24X7 electrified village claim that you are making??
:-)
24 February 2009 at 7:29 pm
Heckler – Hope this helps.
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2007/10/09/stories/2007100950161100.htm
25 February 2009 at 11:04 am
Modi is the best. Churmuri has all along been against Modi. Like most of the English Language Media, her opinion of Modi carries little value.
Modi is the only hope for India. With the likes of Churmuri to lead the people in India, we are all doomed.
25 February 2009 at 5:33 pm
Palahalli,
:-)
Thank you. That does help indeed. Allow me to nitpick please.
While the article you link to does state what BB was claiming earlier, it fails to back it up with data. For example it uses “most of” instead of “all”. That is open to interpretation.
There are other links (also from 2007) that speak of the inadequate power situation (as opposed to the rather tall “round the clock” claim). One such link is here: http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/modis-claims-of-power-surplus-are-fake-sibal/248688/
And another one here: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/In_Gujarat_if_you_are_not_with_CM_God_save_you_Manmohan/articleshow/2605798.cms (Whatever Dr. Singh is called, one thing he cannot be called is a liar.)
On the other hand, Modi & his Govt. have been accused of “misrepresenting” facts & figures. I present 2 more links:
1. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1858701.cms
2. http://www.indianexpress.com/news/report-by-own-govt-punctures-modis-gujarat-hype/413765/
Even if we are to believe some of the claims, does 20 minutes of electricity a day in 1400 Gujarat villages, qualify as Electrified Gujarat? That’s like me claiming that all my employees got salaries on time even during recession. Does anyone care to scratch the surface & ask if only part salaries were being paid out?
It remains unclear who or what we should believe, but would you really put your trust in a modi…?
Detailed analysis can be found here:
http://1conoclast.blogspot.com/2009/01/truth-about-gujarats-development.html
Your thoughts are solicited.
***
Palahalli…
One more question for you to consider:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_states_ranking_by_households_having_electricity
Why are the CM’s & Govt’s of the first 9 states on this link not celebrities? If you can answer that, you will begin to know what our objections to modi are. :-)
____
VR…
Please finish your sentences. Modi is the best if you want no justice. Isn’t that what you wanted to say? Please read the link just above this para. It will open your eyes hopefully.
25 February 2009 at 10:49 pm
Heckler – I’m impressed.
Impressed with the extent Secular-Liberals will go to, to denigrate Modi.
This is not to say I’ve ignored you’re “links”; I haven’t.
In fact, it was you’re “Links” that convinced me about my thinking wrt Modi.
I have two queries for you -
1. You said – “20 minutes of electricity a day in 1400 Gujarat villages”. I might have missed this in the “links”, please help me place it.
2. Wrt “ranking by households”, I don’t know what yardstick you used to get at a “ranking”, but I cross referred with population against each of those 9 states. (This is available in wiki). The only state that compares is Karnataka.
But I loved the IE link you pasted..loved it for the comments though :)
26 February 2009 at 2:33 pm
Pal~… :-)
When the common people will not think or act against injustice, lies, propaganda, PR & deceit, the onus will have to fall on someone. If it has to be the Secular-Liberals (as usual), so be it. :-)
I’m STUNNED at anyone I encounter (irrespective of the “label” he/she wears), that even considers speaking up in defence of Modi. I equate them with those who defend/are fans of godse, hitler etc. I’d love to throw out a “label” at this point, but I don’t think it’s necessary. :-)
1. The link didn’t say it. I was asking that question. Do we know exactly how much electricity is supplied to these 1000 plus new villages? Why are there claims in the links I provided of shortages, if the situation was anywhere near good?
2. What does population have to do with it? We’re talking about the Govt. doing a good/bad job. Some of those states like HP have fairly inhospitable terrain. To get 90% plus electrified households in those states is an achievement way superior to what the PR machine for Gujju-land claims. Isn’t it?
So… WHY aren’t the CM’s of the 9 states nationally celebrated heroes? Why is Sheila Dixit with her record of good governance, development & 3 consecutive electoral triumphs (without resorting to communal rhetoric!), considered a far bigger heroine than this spin-doctor?
I’ll tell you… because the populace that supports him is as communal as him. They’re only hiding behind the PR exercise, trying to cover up their shame.
______
I posted 2 IE links & one blog link. Which comments are you referring to?
PS: I went through your wordpress blog… And the books it seems to be recommending. How come all of them are about either understanding Hinduism or about the legacy of Muslim rule in India?
After seeing that, are we supposed to attach any importance to what you have to say…? :-)
26 February 2009 at 11:23 pm
Heckler – I’ve always known Secular-Liberals to be many notches “above” common people :) It’s true. Way up there in the clouds! So, a lot of things are theirs to think and act on :))
How can I take someone who compares Modi and Godse with Hitler, seriously? And somehow it’s always Hitler…not Chairman Mao or Stalin. Oh..I’m such a “common” man :( Cannot understand such “deep” logic.
1. Now, a piece of advise. Don’t be “airy” about accusations. Such non-sophistication is for us “common” folk. On the other hand, “you” Sir, must be more competent when you try to pull up a “mass murderer” who also “fudges” his economics! I’m not interested in going on a wild goose chase trying to figure out the bull^%$t you’re Secular-Liberal buddies spew :)
2. If you think population’s got nothing to do with it, you might as well compare India’s challenges with Singapore’s! Ooops…but the uncommon man knows better :)
3. Ah yes…anybody in Gujarat who supports Modi…and that’s a majority of them..not counting the many millions across this nation…are all communal. Good. I agree. Deal with it. :)))
4. Heck, I don’t care about the importance you wish to attach to this “common” person…but I wish you’d read the books though. Might still enlighten the clouded mind. :))
See ya…if I see ya…later.
27 February 2009 at 2:26 pm
Pal~…,
I agree. It doesn’t take much to figure out that Secular Liberals (like Gandhiji?) are several notches above the commoners whose very cause they work for. That is what separates them from the commoner, doesn’t it? :-)
Is there the remotest possibility that your Comprehension too suffers from a touch of “common”? Comparing modi supporters to hitler (or for that matter stalin or mao!) supporters IS NOT the same thing as comparing modi to hitler. Although it is a well known fact that every commonplace hindutvi idolises hitler. Need I spell out the rest? :-)
1. Maybe you’d be well advised to refrain from attributing quotes to me that I haven’t made. I haven’t called anyone a mass-murderer yet, have I? I’m waiting for our courts system to decide.
Possibly you are right… Imprecision could well be the hallmark of the label you have chosen for yourself. :-)
As for “fudging” economics, I’d say presenting 6 links & discussing them is hardly “fudging”. Unless you used the word purely out of desperation. Arising out of the fact that you didn’t know how else to counter the unmasking of the PR exercise… :-)
It’s clear you’re not interested. And I & my buddies are glad. We like being a handful of people who positively influence the well-being of their countrymen. A handful of secular-liberals like Gandhi, Nehru then & Manmohan Singh, the Gandhi family, Guha, Tharoor etc now. I’d much rather be slotted with them than your buddies (tumhare sangh jo rehte hai!)!!! :-D
2. Do you grasp the importance of using %age to represent the data instead of sheer numbers? It is to balance out factors like population. So again, who knows better? :-)
3. Thanks for the open acknowledgement. Will deal with it. And win. It’s possible to undo the indoctrination in hate. It may take time & effort, but it can & will be done. Despite you & the books you read. :-)
You may want to rethink your “majority” claim. For someone who recommends reading to “enlighten the clouded mind”, it’s a little out of character to not have read through the links I gave. I’ll present one here again. Go through it: Was the last Gujarat Assembly Election closer than we think?
4. I seek enlightenment & inspiration through the work of Ramchandra Guha, P Sainath, Medha Patkar, Teesta Setalvad, Romila Thapar, Annie Besant etc. etc. etc. if I need socio-economic or historical commentary & a direct reading of the Bhagwad Gita & the Quran if it’s religion. What’s the point in referring to your books, which are written with an only too obvious motive? :-)
See ya…. if you dare return. :-)
PS: We are digressing a bit. Let’s get back to the original question, shall we?
Was Gujarat or wasn’t it always a prosperous developed state, even before the advent of modi. That is the question. What is your final answer?
27 February 2009 at 8:49 pm
Sarcasm is lost on the arrogant.
Let me take you’re last query first.
You say Gujarat was always a “prosperous developed state”. – I will not even argue against.
Good. What is the issue now? That Modi is milking this story?
Or is the real issue; the fact that Gujaratis are buying Modi’s story? You are so flustered not because Modi is doing what any politician worth his salt would do, but his success is what riles you. Modi wins elections based on his record/policies and you hate it. Nice.
Hard working Gujaratis are responsible for their State’s development and they will be tainted “communal” if they vote Modi. Beautiful!
Now to the rest of you’re post -
Gandhi, who championed religious politics…secular? Think again.
You want to discuss “supporters” of Hitler and Stalin?
You’re ilk will not cease talking about a book published in 1939 (and nearly four years prior to the Shoah!) and written earlier, that supposedly supports Hitler in one of its paragraphs….
but…
..will gloat about a man who was in tears when Stalin died his much awaited death…in 1953, when the whole world already knew the truth about his Soviet massacres and his Gulags. Sad. How do you even justify yourselves? Tell us.
1. “I’m waiting for our courts system to decide.” – Good. Sensible.
2.”Discussing” the links? You mean you were not decided? Open mind and all that? – Good. Tell you what. Get a third opinion on those links.
3. “Gandhi, Nehru then & Manmohan Singh, the Gandhi family, Guha, Tharoor etc now.”
- Let’s leave Gandhi out. You need to tell me how he’s Secular and Liberal.
Nehru was the hero in tears. Analyze that.
Manmohan Singh? You mean the guy from Assam?
“the Gandhi family”? Hopefully you leave out the kid. He’s too innocent to share in his clan’s sins. I meant Priyanka’s son.
The rest….ahh let me not waste my breath.
4. Yes, %s – My advice. You can do better comparing India with the Maldives.
5. Ok…the “close contest’ link. Why worry then? Relax.
6. The “names procession” again. Let’s see. I’m cutting out the useless fellows. Sorry huh.
P. Sainath? – I’m ok with this bleeding heart. Do you trust him on China? Tibet?
Medha Patkar? – No issues. A bit hysterical…but is not a professional traitor.
Teesta? Only so you won’t feel bad. She blamed the Mumbai killings on Hindus..hmm. Remember the “round table”?
R. Thapar? Now now…you’re slipping. Two generations read her text book without a single edit! A veritable Qur’an!
Annie Besant? Tsk tsk…Ambedkar must be out the door for you..no?
7. “What’s the point in referring to your books, which are written with an only too obvious motive?”
- Psst..Let this be a secret between us ok? But tell me, have you read a page off any one of those books? Or are you endowed with psychic powers? And oh…btw, not a single one of those authors is from the Sangh.
I’m not happy…I did promise to stay away from sarcasm…
Come back for more…K?
28 February 2009 at 2:48 am
Pal~…
Anyway you want it sweetheart. :-)
The issue is that modi is “lying”. He is claiming that the development in Gujarat is due to him. He is many other things, but for now, let’s just say that I have problem with “liars”. And with people who defend liars. :-)
His success doesn’t rile me. I was riled in 2002 & I remain riled at that fact alone. The rest is a cover up for what he allegedly did in 2002. That must, Churumuri, Dipankar, Ranjona, Tejpal, Setalvad, Sonia, yours truly & a zillion others WILL pull from his face. He will lose, despite your fervent prayers. All facists do. :-)
He DOES NOT win elections on his economic record/policies. He wins it on his communal rhetoric.
And yes. Anyone who votes modi is condoning communalism. There are sins of commission & there are sins of omission. Sinners either way. Unless you speak out & demand that justice be served.
And that the lies & propaganda be stopped. :-)
Depends on what you refer to as secular. If it’s the usage of the term as we know it in India, Gandhi (JI please… sanghies) was secular. If you mean the political definition, you may want to refer to an article in Communalism Combat written by Javed Anand (if my memory serves me right). Gandhiji’s refusal to separate religion from politics can be understood better if you substitute religion with ethics & politics with governance. Is having ethics in governance an undesirable thing.
I guess it is too much to expect the likes of you to understand Gandhi…
Did I say I wanted to discuss hitler & stalin supporters…?
All I wanted to do was condemn modi’s supporters. And liken them to hitler’s supporters. Where exactly are you going with this particular point…? :-)
2. Discussing instead of shoving them down your throat. I’d hoped your ilk would learn through reading & discussion. Obviously that’s not the case. Why bother with a 3rd opinion. Dipankar, Ranjona, Bajaj, Godrej, Churumuri & I makes it 6 people who agree. Why bother with a third opinion? I’ll read “organizer” if I want a third(-rate) opinion! ;-)
3. :-) Go on. The more you talk, the more you expose yourself. You’re a dead giveaway. I know very well, the type of person that takes potshots at Manmohan Singh, the Nehru-Gandhi clan. Your only hope for the past 60 years has been to undermine India’s heroes. Doesn’t say anything for you guys. But go on. My whole purpose was to strip you naked in public, tear the mask from your face. Now that everyone can see the hardcore right-winger in you, my job here is almost done. :-)
Gandhi answered above. Nehru story has nothing to do with what we’re discussing, does it? Have you forgotten the context again?
Manmohan Singh. Academic. RBI Governer. Architect of India’s economic reforms. The prospering India we live in today owes much to him. Much Much more than your ilk. You guys could do something if you got time off from character assassinations. :-)
Don’t waste your breath anyway… I’m not talking to you because I expect that any pearls of wisdom will gush forth. I was only talking to you to help you make the right choice in life. Against propaganda & lies, against communalism. At that point I hadn’t seen your site. Nor read through your comment-harakiri. Now I have. And I willing to let the white man’s burden go. One must always know when to stop. :-)
4. Your advice? Save it. Specially since you can’t understand the use of %age v/s aggregates… :-D
5. Who’s worried. We’re encouraged! There is hope to turn things around! And turn they will. Watch.
6. Having Reading & Comprehension problems again my friend…? Sainath when it comes to socio-economic commentary I said. Didn’t I?
What DO you know about Teesta? Besides taking potshots at her, do you know anything? About her birth, background, upbringing, her stint in journalism. All these people who talk about her… Are they even half the woman she is…? Teesta did an expose on the Bombay police. She produced wireless transcripts. As for what’s happening to the perpetrators, maybe the name Madhukar Sarpotdar rings a bell?
I don’t understand you… You’re defending modi & accusing Teesta??? LOL!!! Go on. Tear the mask from your face. In public. Great job! :-D
Errr…. again… What do you know about Thapar? And what are the motivations of those who undermine her credibility…? Think again.
See, THAT is the problem with you extremists! It’s always either-or, black or white for you. Why can’t a reading of Besant be in one compartment & a reading of Dr. Ambedkar (who incidentally, the right-wingers try & undermine as well…)???
7. You don’t need to be from the sangh to be a crook aligned with their ideology. They claimed that godse wasn’t from the sangh, didn’t they?
advani is not from the sangh. Still a crook right? And both of us know of rouge authors not aligned formally with the sangh, but…
tsk tsk.. :-)
I’m right here. I’m committed to meeting our right-wingers in every forum & exposing their lies & deceit. It’s my cause.
You on the other hand have tried your best to divert attention from modi’s failures, to goodness alone knows how many diverse things. When you’re ready to give up the meandering & come back to discussing that, let me know. :-)
2 March 2009 at 12:53 pm
Heckler – Secular-Liberals (S-L) have not been known for either honesty or spine. So, I’m not surprised.
1. “You on the other hand have tried your best to divert attention from modi’s failures, to goodness alone knows how many diverse things.”
- Please check the discussion and tell me who “meandered” off from the point of discussion. I’m very aware of the S-L zoo, and I needed no introduction.
2. “You don’t need to be from the sangh to be a crook aligned with their ideology.”
- A man (?) reveals himself (?) when he (?) speaks thus. By you’re own admission, you haven’t read the books. You don’t know the arguments contained in it. And yet, you will call intelligent men with intelligent arguments “crooks”. Why? Because they are at variance with whatever you’ve read off you’re zoo.
3. No. I haven’t been “in bed” with either R.Thapar or T. Setalvad. I don’t need to, to be able to read them and make my assessment. Quite unlike you, I read the zoo-view frequently and am not impressed with their self-serving arguments.
But of course, must you not explain to me why R.Thapar’s texts “un”-educated our children for thirty years?
Must you not explain to me why it is so important for T.Setalvad to see Hinduism destroyed? So much so that it does not even stop her from covering for the Jihadis? I forget, that’s so natural of the S-L.
When Ambedkar, (and I know, you haven’t read him too) spoke of the Annihilation of Caste, he did not forget to talk about the need for Dalits to remain within the Hindu/Indic sphere. You’re T.Setalvad loves to talk about the “Annihilation of Caste” bit and conveniently forgets the “Pakistan or Partition of India” piece. Commendable “honesty”, I must say.
D. Gupta wants Secularism to be intolerant. He wants all to be equal before law and all people to be ruled under the same Secular laws. He even talks about the need to do away with Muslim polygamy. Intense courage. Appreciable. But the problem is, he wants all of these things to happen without losing the “Secular” brand name. Hmm..duplicity showing up already? This “social-scientist” pretends not to understand that the logic of S-L will drive him toward appeasement of the minority thug, all the while beating down the majority. That’s why he cannot support/encourage the BJP in its UCC nor in its “Haj Subsidy” stance. Nor can he influence the S-L parties to take up the challenge. The BJP is seen as a Hindu party and that by itself is most hateful for this S-L, to the exclusion of everything else.
P.Sainath has never opposed the Chinese presence in Tibet. He has not even taken the expected (?) moral stance the S-L is required (?) to take against that occupation. Btw, he’s well fated by the Chinese. His master, N. Ram, recently had a piece on his Tibet visit that spoke glowingly of the Chinese developmental works and how great and loving the Chinese were in their treatment of the Tibetan.
Yes, he can do some “socio-economic” consultancy with his limited credibility.
And yes, Nehru. You Heckler, lost you’re credibility when you brushed aside his “Stalin adoration” as being out of context. That only confirmed my opinion of the S-L being both dishonest and spineless. In fact, S-L have been the greatest supporters of these modern monsters (Stalin and Mao). No wonder they hold tight to nebulous “Hitler worship” by Hindutva-vadis by quoting all of ONE paragraph and by citing all of ONE day’s visit to Italy!
Manmohan Singh, the quintessential S-L who has the stature of a mannequin in the Congress store. Even he will bow before the uneducated and unlettered Rahul. So, please don’t waste you’re time citing his academic credentials to me. They have no value against the fifth rate “mind” of Rahul.
Gandhi and the “Ji”? Please spare me the S-L duplicity on Gandhi. I’d much rather stick with his name or rather call him, Mr./Shri. Gandhi.
Godse killed his body, but his spirit was finished by you’re hero Nehru.
Coming back to Modi, you’re “links” are like modern art. They need a certain, shall we say, level of “sensitivity” to the S-L agenda, for them to be understood. Since I’m proud not to have that “sensitivity”, I’ll let you play with them. :)
Oh yes, don’t you deny being riled with Modi’s success. Of course you are. Else you would not have produced that “half-list” of close calls. Again, commendable honesty.
I am very open about my being a Hindu right winger. I’m a Hindu conservative, have never hidden that fact and don’t feel the need to. But you, my friend, you seem to have to hide many things.
2 March 2009 at 6:57 pm
Pal~…
You did come back then? I notice however that you refuse to find modi blameworthy. And for that I find you unworthy. Anyway…
Am itching to start bottom up, so allow me please.
I notice that you have failed to indict modi for his failures. Your candour is commendable, but your leanings deplorable.
A man is known by the stands he takes in life. I am glad that you will always be despised as a right-wing, religious conservative. The kind that have brought shame & violence to India’s streets.
Religious conservatism has always created problems, whether it’s been early Christian persecution, anti-semitic hatred, talibanism or hindutva. That you still choose to be a religious conservative, doesn’t say much for you at all.
I have nothing to hide. I have no leanings. I’m not rightist as I have made obvious. So nothing hidden there. And I’m definitely not Leftist. I stand squarely in the Centre, away from both extremes, both points of madness.
Your saying anything doesn’t make it so. Maybe within the confines of your skull, but far from being anywhere near the truth. Modi hasn’t had any success, so the question of my being riled doesn’t arise! Yes, he’s been successful at fooling people through his PR exercise. And that too doesn’t rile me. It awakens me to work for a cause. To tear the mask off his face. And whether the confines of your skull choose to dismiss Indian Express, DNA, TOI, Dipankar, Ranjona etc. etc., the fact remains that there are others who believe them. Like me, Churumuri, Shivam etc. etc. So eat your heart out.
Has modi failed to protect citizens of his state from rioting? YES, he’s failed there!
Has he failed to curb bootlegging! YES, he’s failed there as well!
Has he failed to stamp out the corruption in his state (bootleging prospers)? YES again.
Admit it. He’s failed on several counts. You just don’t want to admit the truth because he furthers your reprehensible cause.
The rest of your rant is pure-rightist bullshit. Nehru baiting etc. I’ll be selective in addressing it.
That Nehru’s legacy lives on despite your 50 year old attempts to bring him down, is credit to the man. And I didn’t brush aside the stalin reference. It was the first time I’d heard the preposterous claim. I’d like to verify it (as one must verify all rightist propaganda!) before engaging in a debate about it. And that would’ve meant digressing wildly. So I elected to keep the meandering right-winger on track & finish one conversation first instead. Now that you’ve openly admitted that you see no failures on modi’s part, your credibility is shot, & I would be hard pressed to take anything you say seriously. I will give serious consideration to having another discussion with you on the topic you allude to. :-)
Right-wingers Pal~… aren’t worth Dr. Manmohan Singh toenail. Bhagat Singh was a revolutionary, a freedom fighter for us, but he was a criminal for the British. Similarly, Dr. Singh is the architect of India’s economic status today, but to vested interests like yours, he is a mannequin. How history will remember him will be totally different from what you hope. Like I’ve said before, the confines of your skull do not determine the outlook of the world at large. :-)
(As an aside, I didn’t miss the “guy from Assam” potshot at Dr. Singh. I just want to ask how you could venture into that territory when lk addu contests from the Hindu State of Gujarat, or when Punjabi Jat Dharmendra contests from Bikaner! Double standards or plain foot in mouth?)
I take it you’re commie-baiting with your P Sainath-China referencing. I thought you claimed to be a direct sort… Care to expand?
Can you offer “credible” links the way you did earlier, when you make all those bizzare claims about Teesta? And you haven’t answered my question. What do you know about Teesta’s antecedents? How is a Hindu daughter going to ask for the destruction of Hinduism?
(And I’d very much like to discuss Hinduism with you too, once you’re done here.)
3. I don’t think you’d qualify to be admitted in bed with either Ms. Thapar or Ms. Setalvad (the prerogative belonging to the lady), let alone be capable of doing any damage! ;-)
(Look up Thapar on Wiki. Look up the Kluge Award. Go on… Read up. Put aside the panchjanya for a bit.) :-)
2. You read one, you’ve read them all. Intelligent men like me are adept at identifying patters & carefully choosing whose recommendations to consider. Do you actually believe, that given your avowed hindutvi status, I would consider reading anything you recommended…? LOL! :-D
1. Did I meander? You were the one who was refusing to address the issue at hand: modi’s innumerable failures. You started throwing out compliments like secular-liberals (erroneously believing them to be cuss-words). Why were you running all over the place? Weren’t man enough to examine modi’s failures in public?
So, stop throwing out the S-L tag all around. Stop throwing out any tags. Just stick to the topic. Modi failed. At security, at justice, at good governance. Admit it if you have any Dharma in you.
3 March 2009 at 5:23 am
Heckler -
You state my failure to “indict” Modi and then you go on to deplore my “leanings”. Well, I thought you were doing the “indicting”. You have simply made a miserable hash of it. But then, if my “leanings” were not deplorable, Modi would be “indicted” by me automatically, wouldn’t he? So, it’s not the act (“failures” for you) that’s deplorable, it’s the “leaning”. My leaning and Modi’s. They call this thought process, Fascism.
Certainly I will be despised by Secular-Liberals. I do not expect them to be supportive of common sense and spine.
In so far as “bringing shame and violence to India’s streets”, this is the precious “gift” thrust on Hindus by Liberal bleeding hearts. The greatest fraud perpetrated on the Hindus by Liberal “founding fathers” was the 1946 General Elections. The Congress campaigned and canvassed on the pledge of a United India. That was the only issue on which Hindus voted. They trusted these “freedom fighters” when all along, their minds were made up on conceding Pakistan. As a consequence of this crime, Hindus were killed in the thousands and Muslims got their homeland in addition to remaining in India. That filthy sore festers to date. Btw, Gandhi claimed Pakistan would be had over his dead body.
Being in the “centre” of things or not is completely irrelevant. It’s the policy and it’s outcome that’s important. Liberal policy leads to violence because Liberals don’t believe in facing reality. They like their make-believe world. Moreover, you’re center is so full of the left and the ultra left :)
On Modi again, it’s completely irrelevant what the zoo believes in and preaches against him. The fact is Modi connects with voters. They see good in his policies. Those links are not even helping you’re “cause”. Sub- standard propaganda will never help. Any impartial observer will tell you they are half-truths and lies. But then, you’re most welcome to you’re dream.
Look at this – “You just don’t want to admit the truth because he furthers your reprehensible cause.” Pathetic!
Which state under which party has not seen rioting? Not seen “boot- legging”? But you will insist that Modi be hanged, weather he is responsible or not, only because he does NOT further you’re ridiculous “cause”!
On Nehru, I must say you’re knowledge about you’re hero is seriously deficient. Or you don’t want to face facts. That’s standard.
MM Singh is nothing BUT a mannequin. That’s an “a” mannequin btw. There are many like him in “his” party. Face facts Heckler. Painful but very true.
On LK Advani and even Dharmendra, I’m so glad you got the “contests” right. Because these folks campaign and win their seats in parliament. They might lose too. But MM Singh does not contest. He cannot win. So, he’s “nominated”. He cannot lose! How much more pathetic can you’re support for this mannequin get? History will also record that Rahul baba scored over this academic mannequin.
On P. Sainath, again, I don’t care to expand anything about him. I want to know if this perpetual bleeder has spoken for the Tibetan at all? Or for the Kashmiri Hindu for that matter? When he can vent his spleen on empires and atrocities across the Western World and beyond not excluding his own country, he surely can muster time enough to write on Tibet under the Chinese heel? He is not a journalist without influence. He is an accomplished editor with the The Hindu.
You might want to read this half-hearted denunciation of his paper’s policy by amongst others, you’re other hero, Guha.
http://www.opensubscriber.com/message/reader-list@sarai.net/8976842.html
Teesta S not anti-Hindu? It would take a considerable, almost impossible stretch to proclaim her even a Hindu. I have found no evidence of her espousal of equal rights for Hindus in;
1. Managing their own schools and be eligible for Govt. funds just like Muslims and Christians.
2. Administering their own places of worship.
3. What is her position on Muslim atrocities on Hindus? Kashmir?
Yes, she claims to speak for Dalits and she leads them up the garden path.
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/call-for-dalits-and-minorities-to-unite-to-secure-their-due_10068708.html
While at it, please tell me if; Or, since you seem to know her so well, answer them on her behalf.
1. She has ever questioned the demand for reservations for Christian and Muslim “Dalits”?
2. Questioned the egalitarian claim of Islam and Christianity?
And -
3. Investigated the Koranic inspiration of Muslim killers?
In case you need more references; her website “sabrang” is a treasure trove of Hinduness.
****
More – http://sarvajan.ambedkar.org/?m=200809
The Chief Minister further referred to the arrest of Abu Bashar,
main suspect in the Ahmedabad serial blasts, on August 16, 2008 and
Shahbaz Husain, suspect in the Jaipur serial bomb blasts here on August
25, 2008, by the State police. On July 25, 2008, the Special Task Force
took the lid off the fake currency racket in the State.
Shahi Imam of Jama Masjid Syed Ahmed Bukhari, SP leader Abu Aasim
Azmi, Tariq Bukhari and Teesta Setalvad visited Azamgarh and protested
against the arrest of Abu Bashar, she pointed out.
******
Secular-Liberals have near perfected the art of appearing to be the “Good Hindus” when they actually use it as cover for their anti-Hindu agenda.
There is little point in you reading the books. I’m more interested in Hindus reading these books.
Don’t ask me if you meandered or not. Check you’re own posts.
3 March 2009 at 3:26 pm
Pal~…
ENOUGH meandering. STICK to the topic. I’m not interested in why you or modi or the rest of your parry-war, think the way you do. Like I’ve stated before the electrical impulses within the confines of your skull are not in tune with the rest of the universe. I can’t spell out what you need to be doing ASAP, any clearly! :-)
To clarify the absolute muddle you have created with your opening para, le tme restate. You’re mixing up different things.
1. Modi’s failed. That truth needs to be accepted.
2. Your leanings are a different matter. They are deplorable. That’s also a truth that needs to be accepted. By you. The rest accept it. Look around you. Everyone decries religous extremism, of which hindutva is a core member.
3. It’s a totally different matter that your leanings prevent you from acknowledging the truthin # 1. above.
Clear?
You can look up fascism here.
Either you have an excellent sense of humour or your mind is way more twisted than I thought! Err… Common Sense & Spine are the preserve of Liberals & Secularists alike! To state that they lack it can only be either hilarous or hallucinatory! Tell me which one it is, please? :-D
Shame & violence to India’s streets is the preserve of all religious extremists, chief among them being hindutvis. Blaming a rape victim for being provocatively dressed, doesn’t hold water in any court of law. Similarly, blaming others for you despicable hindutvis adopting the path of violence, by quoting cause, isn’t admissable. You chose violence. You’re at fault. And those who poisoned your minds, like that madman savarkar & his worshippers in the sangh parivar, are to blame. If you’ve read any psychology, you’ll know that one of the first thing, befuddled minds do is seek to blame someone else for their own faults. So… sorry to burst your bubble.
Liberals live not in “their make believe world”, but in what the world should be. All invention, all progress, all departures from status quo have come from imagining things different from reality. Galileo, Columbus, Edison… all were ridiculed by lesser minds from living in make believe worlds. Today, lesser minds live in the reality they created.
THAT my friend is the difference between Liberal & Conservative thought! The former stands for Progress the latter for status quo. I hope your mind is a little less befuddled at this point?
And logically speaking, how can the Centre be full of the Left??? I’m quickly losing interest in this conversation Pal~…! Discussions with people with -ve IQ do not interest me… You better keep me interested, if this is to continue. I want to reform you, not teach you!!!
On modi again… :-))))))))))))
You’re welcome to your stubborn delusions. Each link in there is the truth. You are welcome to choose to ignore them. I’m happy with the right-wing remaining inferior. :-)
You’re fast losing track… :-)
A couple of comments back you said “Good” in response to my waiting for the courts system to pronounce modi guilty before asking for his hanging. And I’m anti-capital punishment, so if he is found guilty, I’ll not be asking for his hanging. (You see barbaric modes of punishment are the preserve of the conservatives. Liberals want the human civilization to move ahead, to evolve!)
Stay with me buddy. You’re arguments are quickly degenerating into incoherence. Let’s not attribute things to each other that we didn’t say? Come on, FOCUS! :-)
And again I’m not saying that others not be brought to book. My question is why should only modi be spared? vilasrao deshmukh & the patils lost their jobs because they couldn’t control terror.
If modi couldn’t contain riots, blasts, bootlegging, corruption, farmer suicides etc. etc., why should he TOO not get the sack? THAT is my question. One for which you rightists will have no answer. Because of your biased double standards. Hai koijawab? :-)
Let’s see… Nehru: Good family. Father educated, freedom fighter. Nehru himself, educated, freedom fighter. Author. Anyone who has read letters to a daughter can guage from what a father attempts to teach his child, that he was a good moral man. But you right wingers, will not admit that as evidence, will you? :-)
I notice you didn’t dare to address the Bhagat Singh analogy…
Mannequin huh? Must be the first PhD holding, RBI heading mannequin that has achieved so much for his country!!! Don’t you wish your party had more such mannequins? ;-)
Don’t pursue this line of argument Pal~… It doesn’t help your cause at all. It just gives you away all the more. Taking on universally respected men will not get you anywhere.
:-))))))))
If my information is right, advani started his career with a Rajya Sabha seat? :-)
That he used to contest from the Delhi seat, until he almost lost to Rajesh Khanna; upon which he ran to the Gandhinagar seat??? :-D
And Dharmendra wins the Bikaner seat because….?
And if you’ve read the news recently, you will not have missed that Rahul said that Dr. Singh was his choice for PM. Don’t read the English papers, is it? Only panchjanya…? ;-)
On Sainath, you meander again… He comments on India’s rural socio-economic conditions. That makes me want to read more of him. What does this have to do with Tibet at all? Or Kashmir? It’s not his chosen area of work at all! Again… DO YOU EVEN KNOW ANYTHING about the man you’re talking about??? Sainath work has been commended by Amartya Sen for God’s sake!!! Is there no limit to your ignorance???
And we’re talking Sainath aren’t we? Or are we talking The Hindu? Has Guha denounced Sainath? I admire certain things about Arundhati too. Guha denounced her too. That doesn’t mean that I entirely ignore Guha or Arundhati. No man or woman is right all the time. We focus on their positives. You guys have a different approach. You like to paint all heroes black, you indulge in malicious propaganda, with devious motive.
THAT’s why I said expand & be direct, instead of going around in circles?
Answer me this about Teesta. Was she born to Gujarati Hindu parents or not? Is being born Hindu enough to make someone sympathise with non-extreme Hindu causes? Just because she doesn’t sympathise with hindutva doesn’t mean she doesn’t like Hindus. hindutva & Hindus are NOT THE SAME THING! Get THAT straight! Conservatism/Extremism (cousins) are not wholly representative of any ideology! Sheesh!!! Simple logic!!!
On Teesta, why don’t you read up more about her before you denounce her & her extremely worthy cause? Is asking for justice wrong? You have a lot of questions. Why don’t you go the the archives of http://www.sabrang.com & read up. You’ll be enlightened. Here are two samples for you:
http://www.sabrang.com/cc/archive/2001/july01/cover5.htm
http://www.sabrang.com/news/2006/3may06.htm
Will you not respect a woman like this who not only honestly relates the problems faced by Hindus in Kashmir but also assiduously tries to avoid making it a burning communal issue?
Kuch aankhen khul rahin hain mere mitr…?
Like I stated before, if I have to clarify religous doubts, I will read the religious texts (& maybe some commentaries by certain liberal scholars). WHY would I ask Teesta for her views on them?????????????
Anyway, go thru the links to rid your mind of your bias against her first.
****
Wish it as much as you may, the truth is & will remain that the only hope of Hindus being perceived positively lies with the tolerant, secular & liberal Hindu. Conservative-Estremist have already caused enough damage to the Hindu name & to the country.
DOWN WITH MODI!!! INQUALAB ZINDABAD!!!
(Say it. If you believe in Satyamev Jayate. Say it, if you have any Dharma in you!)
:-)
4 March 2009 at 6:07 pm
Yet another link to back up Dr. Singh, Dipankar, Ranjona, Churumuri, me & every other well informed unbiased citizen:
http://www.blonnet.com/businessline/2000/06/17/stories/041720ma.htm
And this one:
http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/half-of-vibrant-gujarat-goes-to-sleep-empty-stomach/401073/
Who wants more? Ask & you shall receive.
4 March 2009 at 8:04 pm
Heckler,
Sahab, could you please compare and tell how other states compare on these metrics? What were these numbers when modi took over and what are these after??
5 March 2009 at 5:59 am
Part 1
Heckler –
Firstly, its you who must stop meandering. You’ve been feeding this thread a lot of sub-standard “thought”. Messy too. So bear with my responses because they’ll follow you’re “order”.
On Modi -
1. 27 February 2009 at 2:26 pm – “I’m waiting for our courts system to decide.”
- To this, I said; Good. Sensible.
2. 2 March 2009 at 6:57 pm & 3 March 2009 at 3:26 pm – “couldn’t contain riots, blasts, bootlegging, corruption, farmer suicides etc. etc.,”
- Let’s see. What do you think causes “boot-legging” to flourish in Gujarat?
3. 3 March 2009 at 3:26 pm
“A couple of comments back you said “Good” in response to my waiting for the courts system to pronounce modi guilty before asking for his hanging. And I’m anti-capital punishment, so if he is found guilty, I’ll not be asking for his hanging. (You see barbaric modes of punishment are the preserve of the conservatives. Liberals want the human civilization to move ahead, to evolve!)
- Now you want to hang Modi already? Why?
More on Modi –
4. “Modi’s failed. That truth needs to be accepted.”
- I have already told you you’re sub-standard links do not count as evidence. They might just make it as poor propaganda. Not even high class. You’re and you’re Zoo’s OPINION does not count when we’re discussing evidence.
5. “vilasrao deshmukh & the patils lost their jobs because they couldn’t control terror.”
- These two clowns did not lose their jobs because they couldn’t control terror. The first lost his because he took his pal Ram Gopal Verma to sight-see. The second lost his because he got excited on TV.
On Fascism – You’re link
“(sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.”
L.K. Advani and Sonia Gandhi
- Complete power – Who has it? Who doesn’t?
- Forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism – Track record & current?
- Regimenting all industry – What about this?
- Emphasizing an aggressive nationalism – Guilty! But fascism was aggressive and offensive without provocation. Now, please match this with anything you have on the Sangh.
On Common Sense & Spine – Yes. It’s a depressing fact that Liberals lack them. No wonder our post Cold War world is in such a mess. Add to that, their utmost devotion to Political Correctness.
On Shame & Violence to India’s streets
- First of all, Hindutva is not a religious movement. Its a Hindu Political movement. Of course it has its religious ramifications because it is also not a Secular movement. Hinduism is built differently. You might need more study here.
“Similarly, blaming others for you despicable hindutvis adopting the path of violence, by quoting cause, isn’t admissable.”
- Secondly, you shouldn’t be talking like this on a public forum. Its nice you use a nickname but that still doesn’t give one license to make foolish statements.
Hindutva-vadis adopted the violent path in defense. Mr. Gandhi wanted us to die instead of fight for our lives. Savarkar and his ilk wanted us to live. Even the RSS was formed in 1925 after riots in Nagpur. So, please spare us you’re clap-trap.
On Liberals and their “World”
“Liberals live not in “their make believe world”, but in what the world should be.”
- What’s the difference?
On what “Conservative” means
“Conservative thought!…stands for…status quo”
- Does not.
“(Favoring) traditional views and values; (tending) to oppose change”
This just means that you have to convince a Conservative with better arguments. He/she is not against change per se.
Galileo, Columbus (??), Edison (???) – I can still understand Galileo, but the other two were Liberal? Try again.
Moreover, Hindus are/were NOT against change. Sure it got tough the last 1000 years or so and society went into a cocoon, but where do you see folks getting burnt for making a discovery?
On “Center” and “Left”
Here’s what I said – “Moreover, you’re center is so full of the left and the ultra left :)” I meant, all you’re pals are Leftists or Ultra-Leftists. So, you being in the center doesn’t count for much in itself. You’re reliance is on the Left.
On “letters to a daughter” and “good moral man” Vide Nehru
- You are talking about Indira Gandhi, aren’t you? And her mother was Kamala Nehru? Heard of her? What about Lady Mountbatten? Please don’t blame me for slander, you brought it up.
Btw, you might as well check on his Stalin adoration while you’re working hard researching you’re hero. I’ll provide the link if you “cannot” find it :)
Contd
5 March 2009 at 3:20 pm
Part 2
On Bhagat Singh and (I hope God forgives me for this) his comparison with MM Singh
- No, MM Singh is not worth the dirt in Bhagat Singh’s toe-nail. Why?
Because MM Singh is a parasite. Living off the fortunate crumbs he receives from the Gandhi High Table. He’s not a fighter any more than he’s the “father” of our reform. I suggest you pay you’re tributes to Narasimha Rao for that. Do you remember him?
Yes, even a Dharmendra is so far better. At least he has the democratic nerve to get out and fight to get into Parliament. Advani still has to fight from Gandhinagar. He cannot rely on BIG mama for an RS entre’.
Yes, Advani started in the RS. So? What’s you’re point?
On Rahul Baba’s “Yes” to MM Singh
“And if you’ve read the news recently, you will not have missed that Rahul said that Dr. Singh was his choice for PM.”
- Whew!
**
Part 3
On Sainath
Sainath is the “Rural Affairs Editor” of The Hindu. This rag, under N. Ram licks Chinese boots at any and every given opportunity. Our Shri. P. Sainath, makes it a point, at any and every given opportunity, to preach the (still) free world, especially the West, about “Imperial Terror” and “Neo-Colonialism” a-la Arundhati Roy. But ignores the horrendous plight of an entire race being decimated by Han Chinese. This when his rag keeps talking about how good the Chinese have been to their Tibetan slaves. Clear now?
***
Part 4
And please do not mention that empty sophisticate Amartya Sen to me. It was shameful when he praised Mao’s “bare-foot” doctors as a model India could have adopted and had to be corrected (polite) by the Chinese witness who himself was one of the “bare-foot” doctors in Mao’s China.
http://www.fofg.org/news/news_story.php?doc_id=961
On Propaganda and Devious Motive
“You like to paint all heroes black, you indulge in malicious propaganda, with devious motive.”
- See, unlike Liberals, I do not and rather not slice and dice a man’s thought process. I look for obvious signs. Like if someone praises a monster. How can this person be good? Will you accept that argument about Hitler and his Autobahns? Or Mussolini and his Trains? Clarified?
On hindutva & Hindus are NOT THE SAME THING! Get THAT straight!
- You have some wild imagination! Whoever told you they were the same? And just because one is a born Hindu, does not make one a lover of Hinduism, does it? Even if you scrape up the bottom of the earth, you will not find one single solitary expression of love for Hinduism from Teesta S. And yes, to you, it’s not even important. You Liberals are so disconnected from life around you, it’s not a joke anymore.
Sorry, but you’re “cry’ links to cover Teesta is a no-brainer. If you think you can “psyche” these killers into peace a-la Mr. Gandhi, you’re a fool. We need a solution. What is Teesta’s solution?
On Teesta and the Koran – “WHY would I ask Teesta for her views on them?????????????”
- And why not? I’d like to hear them from her. The killers she’s “trying” to psyche, even if I give her the benefit of the doubt, get their sustenance from the Koran. You know, as well as I do, that she thinks the world of the Koran.
And more nonsense -
“Wish it as much as you may, the truth is & will remain that the only hope of Hindus being perceived positively lies with the tolerant, secular & liberal Hindu.”
- Heavens forbid!
You have no idea what Dharma is.
I’ll have more on you’re new links later.
5 March 2009 at 4:28 pm
kharaharapriya…
Memsa’ab…
Which particular metrics? Which link are you talking about? Until you point that out here’s something to think about. And it’s all in the links & more on the web.
1. GDSP: Goa has a higher per capita GDSP than Gujarat. Look at the report. Yet Monserrate isn’t the toast of the nation, nor a candidate for PM-ship? Other states match & beat Gujarat in certain years, Jharkhand for example. No celebration for those guys? No PM-ship for them??? I’ll happily quote verbatim from one of the posts if you want me to.
2. Read the first & second paras of Dipankar Gupta’s TOI article that Churumuri has written this particular post about! It will tell you that modi’s performance is actually poorer in growth rate terms than his predecessors! Do you NEED any more proof???
I’ll give you two more links to read through:
i) http://www.blonnet.com/businessline/2000/06/17/stories/041720ma.htm {perennially confused rightists like palahalli will dismiss this because Business Line is a “Hindu” publication! :-D }
ii) http://www.livemint.com/2009/01/21220302/The-real-Modi-story.html (Livemint by the way is known to be right wing sympathetic)
iii) http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Develop-habit-of-speaking-truth-Modi-urged/301998/ {MORE lies from the propaganda expert (pracharak?) in question}
___________________________________
pal~… :-D
So you have no arguments left huh? Only the classic rightist obduracy, character assassinations & propaganda?
Good. My expose of you is complete.
Churumuri, your call now. Do you want pal~… to use your forum to spread rightist propaganda?
Allow me pal~… to sort out the mess in your head for you:
1. & 3. are related. I don’t see a dichotomy in anything I said. We all know that indoctrination ruined your mindset, but did it ruin your English Comprehension as well??? Where have I changed my stance & asked for modi’s hanging? I don’t want anyone to hang. I want him to stand trial, that’s all. What is wrong with you??????
2. The answer to this is simple: modi allows corruption to prosper. He fails on providing good governance.
4. Indian Express, TOI, DNA etc are substandard links??? Why don’t you tell me what counts then? Panchjanya, Vivek & Organizer??? LOLOL!!! Let’s see. I’ll give you two links where documents were obtained from the Gujarat Govt. through RTI applications. I’d like to see you dismiss them. It’ll be really funny to watch!!! :-D Here they are:
1. http://in.news.yahoo.com/48/20090222/804/tnl-national-data-says-farmer-suicides-a.html (This one also refers to the widening split in the Gujarat bjp. Reason to be happy.)
2. http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/rti-reply-reveals-huge-discrepancies-in-modis-vggis-figures/408617/
5. And the third…? No illogical ruse there??? :-)
Look… if that is what your little mind wants to believe so be it. My point is just this: If they lost their jobs for Terror Tourism & being excited on TV, shouldn’t modi also do so for his chest thumping rhetoric in 2007, when he dared the centre to “hang” him? That doesn’t count as being excited??? And what about failing to contain the riots & the bomb blasts? vilasrao & the patils should lose their jobs. modi should retain his. Is that it? And you wonder why you’re called illogical & fascists???
I notice (gleefully & with a sense of total victory of course) that you avoided lk advani’s Rajya Sabha beginnings…! :-D
- Stop playing around. I stated that common sense & spine were the preserve of the Liberals. Address that. Don’t bring in the cold war etc. in here. You sound more & more confused & come across as trying desperately to somehow wriggle out of the hole you’ve dug yourself into! Stick to the point. Stop the chicken-like, scatterbrained running around. :-)
- Don’t give me semantics. Anything with the word Hindu denotes the involvement of religion. I know more about Hinduism than you possibly can. Will gladly discuss that, once you’ve admitted defeat on this one. :-)
- Yeah… Killing Gandhiji was in self-defence, I’m sure. He attacked savarkar & godse with a gun, godse wrested it from a weak & old Gandhiji, then shot him in the chest. That’s how it happened in the books that rss schools prescribe, right? LOL!!! :-D
And there it comes…! FINALLY!!! Character assassination of Gandhiji!!! I was wondering when you would resort to it. It’s usually the hindutvis last resort. So it’s fairly obvious that you’re at the end of your rope! :-)
- My dear dear misinformed pal… Allow me to correct your (deliberate or incidental?) misinformation about the rss:
1. The rss was formed in 1925 BEFORE the riots in Nagpur which took place in 1927!
2. The founder of the rss, Dr. Hedgewar was anti-violence. Citation? Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._K._B._Hedgewar#Early_life_and_career
3. He founded the rss as an organization to reform Hindu society, to cleanse it of the ills that had crept into it. Citation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._K._B._Hedgewar#Background_of_RSS)
4. It’s unfortunate that the rss today is the exact opposite of what his dream was.
Can you believe your utter ignorace??? I am having to teach your about the organization you hero-worship??? Tsk… Tsk…
Why am I even talking to someone so obviously beneath me…?
Ah… I remember. To educate is my cause…! OK.
- Point taken on conservative, but tending to oppose change is explanatory enough, isn’t it?
The difference between make-believe & desirable is self-explanatory.
Galileo, Chris & Tom lived in the realm of “desirable”. You try again! :-)
- Mumbo Jumbo on Centre-Left. You’ve put your foot in your mouth & are now incoherent. Extract your foot out of your mouth, think again, admit that you were wrong (on many many counts) & then try again. ;-)
- More character assassination? Nehru now? Field day for the sanghies, huh??? LOL! Anyway, here goes:
a) Letters to a daughter is documented evidence of a man’s teachings, and possibly an insight into the morals he considered good.
b) Kamala Nehru died young. She died in 1936. I don’t think Nehru had even met Edwina till 1947 when Mountbatten brought her with him to India.
c) Please go through this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwina_Mountbatten#Other_relationships
It seems to suggest that the “rumoured affair” was in all probability conjecture.
“Evidence” v/s “Conjecture”. Get the difference?
:-)
F**k Stalin. I’m not interested, since it comes from a rumour monger like you. I’m more interested in showing the world how totally inaccurate your information & each of your claims are!!! As long as you keep talking, I have an opportunity to expose your total lack of knowledge & abundance of bias. Carry on my beloved hindutvi! :-)
5 March 2009 at 4:31 pm
PS: STILL no word on Shaheed Bhagat Singh’s martyrdom?
Chhupte phir rahe ho…? ;-)
Chhupo… Chhupo.
5 March 2009 at 8:34 pm
pal~…
In your “Part 2″ you’ve displayed:
- more balls than in any of your previous comments; &
- exposed more of your utter incompetence at logical debate.
I’ll tell you why.
1. The Bhagat Singh who you seem to hold in high esteem was a Leftist. A Marxist. A Commie. The same Leftists you’ve been taking potshots at all along!!! Kya koi Consistency nahi hai tumhare arguments mein??? HOW do you expect me to take anything you say seriously??? :-)
Therefore the venom you’re spewing at Dr. Manmohan Singh is summarily dismissed. As are you. :-)
Dr. Singh, contrary to your malicious claims about him living off the crumbs is so key to the Congress’s scheme of things, that without him their Govt. was unimaginable! His becoming PM is a tribute to his acceptability by all, supporters & dissenters alike.
The opposition was so shocked at his name coming up for PM that they couldn’t say anything. It took them years before they could get over their consternation. Of course their innate crude nature won in the end & they took potshots at him, but initially they had no choice but to quietly accept a man of his uncompromising integrity, erudition & achievement!!!
Narsimha Rao? NOW we’re talking. At least you’re beginning to give credit where it’s due. Narsimha Rao’s biggest achievement was moving towards reforms yes. But he handed over the thinking of reforms & their implementation to Dr. Manmohan Singh! Rao gets my vote for being the leader, but Singh for being the implementer!
Rao will be remembered as Sonia will be, as suggested by RK Karanjia. (Read this: http://www.anniezaidi.com/2005/05/more-mps-like-pm-please.html)
At this point I will take a leaf from your book & question the integrity of Dharmendra who “abandoned” his birth-religion and “abused” another in order to marry a second time. This is your candidate??? Are you sure??? And what exactly makes him win in Bikaner?
:-) advani started in the RS, right? So how is it so bad if Dr. Manmohan Singh started his political career in the RS? How can you have such double standards?? :-) :-) :-)
Part 3:
Still very very unclear. I’ll repeat my question.
Are we talking about Sainath’s unquestionable expertise on rural India’s conditions? Or are we talking about the attitudes of “The Hindu” towards the chinese???
5 March 2009 at 8:52 pm
Heckler
Man, you really know your subject. You cleared a lot of misconceptions for me. Thanks
5 March 2009 at 10:02 pm
Heckler
Amazed at the reservoir of statistical information you have.
5 March 2009 at 10:14 pm
For i), ii) whats the source from where the data comes?
And i) is dated June 17,2000, Modi is in power like 2000. So how does it reflect on Modi?
I wanna know how others compare, other states compare, how the other chief ministers compare.
regarding the RTI , how are you so confident that the officer hasnt erred with the data?
I just want some plain , simple and convincing answers.
And your logic of comparing Goa CM’s performance is very skewed. These are small states and the ease of administration is very obvious.
6 March 2009 at 5:28 pm
Ashoka, Fumble,
Thank you. It’s all available out there on the Internet. One only has to look for it. Wiki, Google… a trivia fan’s paradise! :-)
____
k~…priya,
- GDSP link is from the Planning Commission Website.
- What 2000 data are you talking about??? Like I asked you earlier, can you submit the link you are talking about?
Look at the per capita GDSP data. It will show you how other CM’s are doing as far as growth is concerned in their states.
& LOLOL!!! So modi can’t be wrong, but newspapers, journalists, social activists, RTI applications etc. could be wrong!!! Is that what you’re trying to say? Sahi hai behen, sahi hai! LOL!!! Aap rehne deejiye!
Err… small state, big state… any other excuses? Do you understand what “per capita” seeks to do??? Please look up the term.
And Gujarat is a smaller state than Maharashtra, AP, UP, Uttaranchal etc. etc. So the CM’s of these states (according to your logic) must be doing a better job. Right?
Like I said… Aap rehne deejiye.
____
pal~…
:-)
Will address “part 4″ after you’ve finished your foot-in-mouth exercises in reply to my earlier comments.
Waiting… (rubbing my hands in glee!)
:-)
6 March 2009 at 5:37 pm
PS: Gandhiji, apostle of peace & non-violence, devout Hindu (recall his 40 odd readings of the Bhagwad Gita, Ram Rajya & Vaishnav Jana?). Only misinformed, brainwashed you, could preposterously suggest that he wanted Hindus to die!!! He abhorred violence to the extent that he refused bodyguards despite 4 previous attempts on his life. He was referred to as Mahatma by Rabindranath Tagore.
But I’m sure the fascist in you will have something dismissive to say about Tagore as well… :-)
My advise to k~priya applies to you as well. Rehne deejiye, aap se nahi hoga yeh. :-)
6 March 2009 at 7:19 pm
Heckler,
Isnt this dated Saturday, June 17, 2000 http://www.blonnet.com/businessline/2000/06/17/stories/041720ma.htm ??
When did I say Modi cant be wrong?? Its just that you are biased. I hope you understand some basic english.
Where did you give the GDSP link btw??
And hasnt Goa been relatively well developed for a long time compared to other states?
BTW do you know, that universities have a student to faculty ratio which they use as a metric to gauge the student to faculty interaction when they accredit a university. The same logic holds here as well. Its very obvious that one man handling a tiny state like goa can do a better job than some-one handling a far bigger state.
Why do you think people want a seperate Telengana state?
And BTW i am a Sahib not memsaab.
I have lots of Gujarati friends who give completely different picture about Modi.
6 March 2009 at 8:10 pm
Kprya has been asking for some kind of a simple tabular comparison of all the states’ performance indices. Is it too much to provide for those who support/criticize modi ?
Heckler, sorry for butting in.. but could you summarize your views in bullet points instead of writing such long comments ?
6 March 2009 at 8:30 pm
K~priya,
Apologies for the gender confusion.
And thanks for going the link way.
THAT particular link was presented to prove what everyone has been saying!!! That Gujarat has ALWAYS been in the forefront of development! That modi is trying to take the credit for himself, when actually he’s done nothing different. Gujarat was marching ahead of most other states all the time. The 7th para in that link states:
Nobody knew modi during the 90’s.
I’m not biased. I’ve never once allowed my personal dislike of modi to come in the way. I have only presented link after link after link to expose his lies. So you do admit that he could be wrong & the RTI applications & newspapers could be right? Thanks. It did seem strange that ALL newspapers were being dismissed at one go! Anyway, moving on…
The link was in Opinionated’s post on this topic. Please go through it. It has many many links: http://1conoclast.blogspot.com/2009/01/truth-about-gujarats-development.html
Your point on Goa is my point on Gujarat. Refer to the 7th para mentioned above.
So again, the CM of Uttar Pradesh should be the best CM then, coz he/she handles one the largest & most populous states in India. And by that logic, our PM should be given a Bharat Ratna. He runs the affairs of the 7th largest nation in the world & the 2nd most populous! Under him India is referred to as an Asian Tiger, The Fastest Growing Economy etc. etc. (Read the 4th para here please: http://www.nasscom.in/Nasscom/templates/NormalPage.aspx?id=43359)
Sure your Gujarati friends must be giving a different picture about him. Didn’t they vote for him? Please ask them to check out the newspaper & planning commission links here. :-)
6 March 2009 at 10:35 pm
Heckler
You dwarf your opponents with your intellectual depth, the expanse of your knowledge and your breezy, saucy style of language.
In another posting, I had showed 14 links to prove Gujarat is not really among the best states in the country on several paramters from malnutrition to sex ratio to farmers suicide to joblessness to education and health.
IN another posting, Palahalli had confessed to be an admirer of Godse.
Which means, Palahalli is the type of person who acutally thinks it is fine to murder an old man, if he differs with your thinking.
If somebody disagrees with you, whip out a gun and shoot him down.
That’s Palahalli’s menatlity.
Can you reason with such fanatics?
Fanatics are beyond reasoning.
6 March 2009 at 10:54 pm
This is only one example amongst many –
SPEECH AT PRAYER MEETING – May 1, 1947
“I would tell the Hindus to face death cheerfully if the Muslims are out to kill them. I would be a real sinner if after being stabbed I wished in my last moment that my son should seek revenge. I must die without rancour.”
http://www.gandhiserve.org/cwmg/VOL095.PDF
I mean, does this even need recounting??
So, Heckler, If you are a Hindu, please remember this advise of you’re hero. Next time you get caught in a riot, take what you get “cheerfully and without rancour.”
7 March 2009 at 11:26 am
Friendsville,
Ignore Heckler-ji and Simple-Ji. As Gandhiji used to say after rolling his eyes, “Hey Ram! These fools do not know what they are saying!”, followed by a deep sigh.:
Heckler-ji likes to give Nehru straight A’s for his conduct right through his career. No wonder he wrote some loving letters to his daughter as would any father but he also ensured a la Dirty Devegowda fashion that Indira would carry on his legacy. Seckular-Hecklers conveniently gloss over this. THey are already finding glorious muli-faceted sides to Rahul baba’s personaliy. Next thing you know Sonia will be called the new Indira and so on…
7 March 2009 at 12:01 pm
Heckler – I see some interesting points made by you.
1. Look. You have decided you want to “teach” me. So, all my arguments against you’re stance MUST seem like propaganda to you. So, just the fact that my “teacher” calls his student’s argument “propaganda” without justification, shows how bad a “teacher” you are.
2. Liberals love hiding under the State’s petticoat. So, you too run to Churumuri for protection. No surprising at all.
3. “I’m waiting for our courts system to decide.” & “waiting for the courts system to pronounce modi guilty”. No contradiction? I see. I know the Liberal Gulag better, so you’re hide & seek doesn’t help you much.
4. The fact on “boot-legging” is this. Modi, like the anti-Mr. Gandhi, that he is, wants to get rid of “Prohibition” in Gujarat. And quite unlike the “Fascist Dictator” he is made out to be; he listens to trash like this.
http://health.rediff.com/news/2007/oct/03inter.htm
“When Modi relaxed the prohibition policy we put graffiti all over Gujarat quoting Gandhiji that “alcohol is an invention of Satan”.”
5. Now, you’re links;
a. http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/modis-claims-of-power-surplus-are-fake-sibal/248688/
Sibal – “Sibal said that though Modi claims Gujarat to be a power-surplus state the facts are otherwise.”
Modi – “Also, Gujarat is moving to become power surplus”
http://narendramodi.in/news/news_detail/34
Sibal is a liar.
b.http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/In_Gujarat_if_you_are_not_with_CM_God_save_you_Manmohan/articleshow/2605798.cms
MM Singh – “”I came to Gujarat to divulge the real fact of Gujarat’s development. Here people are repeatedly being told that development in the state only happened in the last nine years. In fact, development story of this great state began in 1960, thanks to hard working Gujaratis and not because of the current BJP government.”"
& again,
“I am not saying that nothing is happening but the state’s development is due to overall development of the country.”
- Churlish? Expected.
c. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1858701.cms
- Rajiv Shah – “This is not the first time these statistics have been misrepresented. In 2003-04, early estimates said the state’s growth rate was 15.4 per cent. However, the final figure for 2003-04 turned out to be lower — 14.77 per cent. ”
- Evidently, this eminence refuses to believe an “estimate” can vary from “final”.
d.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_states_ranking_by_households_having_electricity
- I believe I have already responded to this stupidity. Are you done with comparing the Maldives with India yet? Ah yes, please take %s too :)
e.http://www.anniezaidi.com/2007/12/blink.html
- And you did not find it interesting that a little more than a quarter of the total constituencies have been mentioned? But yes, its war in progress. So, hope for hope :)
f.http://www.blonnet.com/businessline/2000/06/17/stories/041720ma.htm
- How does this relate to Modi? Wait, you want to show Gujarat was “doing well” before Modi. Good. Now show me where Modi has said “it was not doing well”.
g.http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/half-of-vibrant-gujarat-goes-to-sleep-empty-stomach/401073/
“But, as the state government itself has admitted, the PDS in Gujarat have come to be known for hoarding, profiteering, poor quality, adulteration, overpricing and under weighing.”
- Where is the lie, from Modi? His Govt. is being most truthful. Wait, you wanted “breast-beating” and “self-flagellation”. Sorry to disappoint.
h.http://www.livemint.com/2009/01/21220302/The-real-Modi-story.html
This – “Businesses like Modi because he has rejuvenated Gujarat. Under his watch, the state has upgraded ports and improved the quality of roads dramatically. He is credited with reducing corruption, eliminating red tape, providing uninterrupted electricity to all villages and harnessing rainwater. The number of girls attending and staying in schools has risen. Gujarat’s bureaucracy swears by Modi.”
& also this – “It is odd, therefore, to credit Modi with Gujarat’s vibrancy. And it is hard not to blame his government for the colossal failure to protect civilians during the anti-Muslim violence in 2002. That alone disqualifies him from holding office. But Gujaratis have continued to elect him. Fair enough; but the rest of India does not have to do so.”
- Liberal churlishness and jealousy ad-infinitum :) I love it! And please spare me the crap of “livemint” having “right-wing” sympathies.
i.http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Develop-habit-of-speaking-truth-Modi-urged/301998/
“Patel asked Modi to narrate truth about this service and said that this 108 ambulance service was launched under ‘Rashtriya Gramin scheme’ of the Union government for which the Centre bore the entire expenditure.”
And this -
http://www.thehindu.com/2009/01/09/stories/2009010960880100.htm
“The Emergency Management and Research Institute (EMRI), which runs the 108 ambulance services in partnership with respective governments in eight States, will look for alternative funding in case former Chairman of Satyam B. Ramalinga Raju and his family members prefer to withhold their five per cent contribution for operating the scheme. Mr. Raju, who is also the EMRI chairman, decided to quit that post in the wake of the scandal.”
- So, if according to Patel, the Central Govt is funding 100%, why is the EMRI looking for “alternative funding”? Who is the liar here?
j.http://in.news.yahoo.com/48/20090222/804/tnl-national-data-says-farmer-suicides-a.html
“To be precise, the data for 1997 is 565; 1998 is 653, 1999 is 500; 2000 is 661; 2001 is 594; 2002 is 570; 2003 is 581; 2004 is 523; 2005 is 615; and for 2006, it is 487.”
- Yes, to be precise.
And the Headline – “National data says farmer suicides a reality in Gujarat, state denies”
- Where is the “denial” of farmer suicides in the article?
k.http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/rti-reply-reveals-huge-discrepancies-in-modis-vggis-figures/408617/
Sahu says, “I have absolutely no idea why and how the state Industries Commissioner came up with such figures in reply to an RTI application. There must be some catch somewhere. The figures that the chief minister himself announced are authentic. We reiterate that over 60 per cent of the proposed investments during the earlier VGGIS have either been commissioned or are under implementation,” he told this newspaper on Thursday. Sahu added that the issue would be inquired into.”
- Heckler, please get back on the IE follow up of this.
Let’s carry on now
6. Modi does not lose his job because he gives terrorism the seriousness it deserves. He did not lose his job because he was/is never flippant about it.
Modi’s “chest-thumping”. – http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Book-me-for-sedition-and-hang-me-Modi-dares-Cong/323421/
- I have nothing but praise for Modi.
Again, Vilas & Patil lost their jobs because they displayed deplorable attitude. Patil was unfortunate. Vilas should have been lynched.
7. So, Advani started as Rajya Sabha MP. So what? There is a RS..and we need MPs there. What’s you’re point?
8. Liberals wouldn’t know spine if they are staring at one. To bend and crawl in the face of aggression is their manner.
9. “Anything with the word Hindu denotes the involvement of religion.”
- I agree. That’s why I said, Hindutva had religious ramifications too. Read my posts properly. We’ll save time and space.
10. Gandhi’s character “assassinated”? How? Did he want Hindus to fight for survival? I expect an answer to this.
11. On RSS – Also displays you’re arrant and arrogant stupidity.
a. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1927_Nagpur_riots
“The earlier riot of 1923 was caused when members of Hindu Mahasabha took out a procession and passed in front of a mosque and played loud music. The Muslim community objected starting a skirmish between the two parties.These riots had a profound impact on K. B. Hedgewar which prompted him to form Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), a Hindu nationalist organization and currently one of largest Hindu organization in world, at Nagpur in 1925.”
b. “It’s unfortunate that the rss today is the exact opposite of what his dream was.”
- Explain how.
12. “Galileo, Chris & Tom lived in the realm of “desirable”. You try again!”
- Try not to jerk around too much. You told me Columbus and Edison were Liberals. Prove it.
13. On Kamala, I never told you Nehru switched Edwina for Kamala. But the good man treated her so well, she died in Switzerland. And of course, Edwina/Nehru = Platonic love. I agree :)
14. How can I **ck Stalin when he’s “in bed” with Nehru? This man really got around, I must say.
Read on…http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv10n2/nehru.htm
This, when Khrushchev was saying this;
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1956khrushchev-secret1.html
15. On Bhagat Singh being a Communist. September 27, 1907–March 23, 1931
- I have not denied it. But would he have sided with the Communists in ‘42? Would he have sucked up to the Soviets and the Chinese and done their bidding? Would he have supported the Pakistan Resolution, like the CPI did? The man he died for, Lala Lajpat Rai, was a Hindu nationalist.
The point being, Bhagat Singh is remembered as a great freedom fighter who sacrificed his life for the Motherland. He IS NOT remembered as a Communist. Please spare him the shame.
16. “But he handed over the thinking of reforms & their implementation to Dr. Manmohan Singh!”
- I agree. Otherwise this spineless technocrat would have carried on the way he had, before PV came on the scene. And PV does not even have a memorial in Gandhi Family’s “dead stretch” New Delhi.
Spare me you’re encomiums to PV. You would not even have mentioned him if I had not picked it up.
17. Talk to me when you find me defending Dharmendra’s conversion circus. Not until then.
18. MM Singh lied about his Assam residency. He did not even do the honorable thing of contesting the LS after he became PM. Shameless man.
19. P.Sainath = Rural Affairs Editor (The Hindu) = The Hindu = Chinese boot-licker = This techno bleeding heart is without a conscience.
When he can lecture on the depravity of “Western Democracy” and “Uruguay” and “Capitalists”, he finds it impossible to look up and talk Tibet? This when his paper has made it mandatory to back China on everything it does in Tibet?
http://www.whydemocracy.net/film/35
I am expected to believe this man is honorable.
Oh yes, so are you! :)
****************
7 March 2009 at 1:26 pm
Doddi Buddi – Folks like Heckler should never be ignored. They must know the true worth of their arguments.
But thanks anyways.
7 March 2009 at 5:35 pm
Sandesh…
Sweetheart, I’ve given so many links with tabular representations, data organized separately into paragraphs etc. etc. It’s all there. One just needs to click on the various links. Please read the comment that appears right under yours & you will find everything that you’re looking for. :-)
____
Simple,
Thank you. I know man, but what to do…
I know that the easy way out is to accept that there is no hope for taliban style fanatics like palahalli. But one must not give up. We must continue to good work that people like Swami Dayananda Saraswati, Raja Rammohun Roy, Iswar Chandra Vidyasagar & Mahatma Gandhi had started. We MUST walk that path…!
I know it’s a tough job, but someone must do it, right? :-)
____
palahalli…
:-) You quote but you do not understand… :-)
Gandhiji was preaching eschewing violence totally. He practised it himself. He happily took an assasins bullet. Surprisingly it wasn’t a Muslim who killed him. That shame is the hindutvi’s alone to bear.
Why just a Hindu? I am also a Christian. I will gladly turn the other cheek, die on the cross, forgive those who wrong me, willingly eschew bodyguards & take bullets on my frail aged chest.
Tell me this… whose memory strides the World, colossus like? Jesus’s or the pharisees’/judas’? Who do people think of, follow & salute? Gandhiji or godse? Do you remember Safdar Hashmi or his killers? Do you remember Neerja Bhanot or her killers?
Dud(e)… you’re lost here. These men achieved immortality by dying smilingly. Their killers are lost in obscurity & left their progeny & associates to bear the weight of the immense shame… Is that why you’re so hassled? Because your sense of guilt is subconsciously gnawing away at your being…?
See what comes of hate & violence? There’s still time. Like angulimal changed, you (& your cohorts in the sangh) can too! Like he bowed to Buddha, you too can salvage your soul by bowing to India’s modern day Buddha… Gandhiji.
The rest of your stuff is the sputtering rant of a man desperately trying to stand his ground despite his knowledge & biases being exposed so openly. You’re wondering, “Who will take me seriously now? Who will read my blog now? HOW could I not know about the origins of the rss???”. Take a deep breath dude. Drop the rant. Admit the truth. Let me cursorily address your rant. Since I want to teach, reform you etc…
So according to you Sibal is a liar, Dr. Singh is churlish, Amartya Sen is an empty sophisticate, Nehru was in bed with Edwina & stalin, Gandhiji wanted Hindus to die, Sainath is without a conscience…
Only darinder modi is to be believed. Only he is upright, clean & progressive?
Is that how it works??? And you wonder why you’re called fascists??? ***Wait a minute please. My sides are hurting from laughing so much… gimme a sec… phew! OK, I’m back!!! One sec… LOLOLOLOL!!!!!! OK, OK… phew… Enough. Must finish the debate.***
- Sure you’ve responded on electricity. You’ve responded with the IQ of a certified idiot. (Certified because you wear your Hindu conservative badge). Go back to your school maths teacher & under his/her tutelage, go through the chapter & sums on percentages again. :-)
- My dear in-depth analysis friend, if you read through the link & the comments properly, you will note that it’s stated clearly that the table is only a few of the constituencies. The link to all of them is available. Why don’t you go there, export the table into Excel, sort by the %age difference…. oh wait… you’re poor at %ages. Ask at your local shakha for help. Hopefully they know Excel…?
- :-) Now you’re talking. Our contention has always been that celebrating modi for bringing development to Gujarat is a lie! THANK YOU for admitting that!!!
- The “lie” is in that very link you pasted against j. my poor uninformed soul… Read paras 11, 12, 13, 14 & 15. The lie will become evident. Unless the IQ of an idiot kicks in again… :-D
6. No point trying facts & logic with you as Simple rightly points out. But one must try. You don’t need to specify your admiration for modi. That is your defining taint. :-)
The fact that all his seriousness about terrorism & his empty rhetoric has not been able to contain the blasts is not obvious to you at all.
The fact that despite his rhetoric (he’s been ranting about terror in 2005 & 2006), there were serial blasts in Gujarat in July 2008! So, has he failed? I’m certain you’ll say “no; he doesn’t deserve to go. vilasrao, rr & shivraj failed. Singh failed, UPA failed. modi? no, no… not him. He’s doing development ji… He’s giving tough anti-terror speeches ji…” Any more hypocrisy?
7. Point is self-explanatory. You’re stalling. Anyone else reading will be able to see the connection. Read again if you can’t see it.
8. I really think you need to look up the definition of Liberal. Was Gandhiji a Liberal? Did he stand up to lathi charges, a foreign govt., for what is right, to an assasins bullet? You better infuse this debate with some logic & intellect. I’m fast getting bored.
9. I’m doing you a favour by reading you & talking to you. I’m trying to salvage you soul. You just don’t know it yet.
… your point on hindutva being…? Forget it. I don’t want to know. I already know all the rubbish you will come up with. :-D
10. Gandhiji always wanted to fight for the right cause. His method of fighting was different…
(Sorry, guests have come over. Gotta go. Will return, Monday probably.)
PS: On Rao: http://1conoclast.blogspot.com/2008/04/ethnicity-politics-or-progress.html
7 March 2009 at 11:03 pm
Heckler,
Way to go.
7 March 2009 at 11:33 pm
The platonic love between Heckler and Palahalli is truely informative to one and all.
But as of now the scales of success seem to be tilted more towards Heckler.
7 March 2009 at 11:49 pm
Heckler – Why am I not surprised at you’re response?
This will be my last response to you, only because you’re so unworthy of any more responses.
I’ll forget all the points you glossed over because they could not be refuted by you and will focus on you’re last post.
On Gandhi -
1. I expected a “rational” response worthy of a Secular-Liberal, to the problem posed by Gandhi.
If I was a Muslim and I had Gandhi on the scene, I would wish him a very long life indeed. I would do everything in my power to protect him. Would have made eminent sense to me. After all, he is protecting me and my Muslim fellows. He, in addition, is making sure Hindus will never retaliate.
Instead of a straight answer, you resort to pompous humbug.
2. You stand exposed on RSS related facts.
3. You stand exposed on each of you’re links you evidenced against Modi.
You have doubts, nevertheless, one a few of you’re links; I shall clear those doubts for you.
a. http://www.anniezaidi.com/2007/12/blink.html
You say – “you will note that it’s stated clearly that the table is only a few of the constituencies.”
This is what the blog write-up has to say; Please point out where its “stated clearly” that the table is only a few of the constituencies?
Not to me, because you won’t be speaking with me anymore, but to you’re friends who seem to have placed their trust in a very crooked debater.
I’ve skipped the “poetry”.
“A lady called Chandni sent an email today, citing these lines; she also forwarded a message from Anhad along a breakdown of the voting patterns in Gujarat. It asked us to remember that the margins were slim. That for every 37,722 people who voted for the BJP in Rajpipla, there were many more who voted against (37,091 for the Congress – a difference of 631 votes – and 2807 for the BSP).
I hardly batted an eyelash when I’d heard of the result; I hadn’t allowed myself to. But for some reason, this email is making me blink. Furiously.
I’m going to try and put up that list in this post, but in any case, you can go and look at the details on the Election Commission website. (At this point, a link is made to the EC website – “Homepage”". How convenient.)
And then the Table follows and then reader comments issue forth.
Heckler, where is the disclaimer?
4. “Our contention has always been that celebrating modi for bringing development to Gujarat is a lie! THANK YOU for admitting that!!!”
- I have admitted to no such thing. Modi has indeed brought development to Gujarat. I don’t see any conflict with a prior development in Gujarat. Certainly Modi does not claim that Gujarat was not developed before he came on scene.
Heckler, again, you fail to redeem yourself.
5. “The “lie” is in that very link you pasted against j.”
I read the link again. Confusion confounded with Sainath introducing the “pesticide suicide” angle. Well, I think Modi’s detractors should take this reasonable suggestion seriously.
“Brushing aside the NCRB data completely, P N Roy Chowdhary, Principal Secretary (Agriculture), Gujarat, said, “I have no knowledge of any such NCRB figures but will certainly look into it.”
He added: “The data can only be authentic if all the stakeholders, that is the government, NGOs, media and the Kisan unions together develop a collective surveying mechanism.”"
Heckler, again, you’re shadow boxing fails.
6. You seem to have absolutely no idea what is expected of leadership in responding to challenges. It is attitude that’s everything. That is what will ultimately snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. That is why people will always have more confidence in Modi.
7. Somehow, you’re grouse against Advani as RS MP is supposed to convey something? You’re the one who wants to miss the clear point against MM Singh.
8. “Was Gandhiji a Liberal?”
- You’re yet to answer my older question – “Let’s leave Gandhi out. You need to tell me how he’s Secular and Liberal.” 27 February 2009 at 8:49 pm
9. Irrelevant comment.
10. Sure Gandhi wanted to fight for the right cause. I’m contesting his manner of doing it. Btw, everybody fights for their “right causes”.
PS – You’re blog link on PV proves my point about MM Singh. Spineless technocrat who moves only when “moved”.
Good bye.
8 March 2009 at 12:18 am
Gururaj – You’re right about Heckler and Co.
Btw, least anybody thinks I’m running away, no, I’m not.
I will gladly respond to any other debater who can point to discrepancies in my argument with Heckler.
Thank you.
8 March 2009 at 11:06 am
Palahalli
If you agree Gujarat was vibrant long before Modi, then the topic is closed.
Modi or no Modi, Gujarat has been foward in many aspects of development since ages. Gujarat also has been backward in many aspects of development and BJP has done nothing to change that.
8 March 2009 at 12:09 pm
Heckler,
Man truly, you have mastered the art of “If you cant convince, confuse” :)
Take a deeper look at the tables properly.
>> # Take a look at the per capita income gross state domestic product figures in this table that I obtained from the planning commission website. A smaller state like Goa has TWICE the per capita GDSP income of Gujarat!!! Goa registered an improvement of 21% in 2004-2005! Jharkhand was at 35%! When then is only the Gujarat CM in the news & not Goa’s CM??? Or Haryana’s which is also close in the averages? There has to be a reason! Essentially PR. Presumably to cloud the 2002 sentiment? Good job on the PR though! Have to hand them that! Mooh mein Raam/development, bagal mein churi!
Why does the author forget to tell that Goa had more than TWICE per-capita GDSP in 1999-2000 , which is the starting point of comparison:) Thats when Modi took over.
GDSP of Gujarat 18864 , Goa was 42296. If you look at it, GAP is wide but its clearly reducing.
Why doesnt the author talk of the fact that in 2003-2004 Gujrat came 4th(18.5) after Chattisgarh(22.5), Rajasthan(27.5), Orissa (20.9). Madhya Pradesh (16.5) stands 5th. All BJP ruled states/BJP coalition states. Selective representation of facts by the author rite when pointing out only 2004-2005.
Regarding Jharkhand the author conveniently forgets that 2000-2001, there was a slump in per-capita by -19.2 percent ?? :)
Make some efforts to look at the table and understand them.
Lets look at the bird’s eye view. Overall increase in per-capita for gujrat from 1999 to 2006 as you can see is 81%, Whereas for Goa is 65%. All india 63.87%. Go check the tables and do the math for yourselves.
Thanks for the links, this has convinced me much more of Modi capabilities.
Why shouldn’t one market their achievement’s? Who told Haryana not to do that? I am sure the Haryana CM does that in his state. Just that the national media doesnt highlight.
regarding the number of farmer deaths, the link doesnt speak how other states compare?? :)
The Nasscom link isnt even working for me. So i cant comment on it. Please provide a working link.
Palahalli,
I wonder how could you miss the planning commission data, and not use it as a tool to expose them? Why do you start the vicious cycle of Gandhi-Godse n all?
For all the Modi baiters, here is a tabulation of Per-capita income increase from 1999-2006 picked from Planning commission data that Heckler pointed which is present in OPINIONATED’s blog. All it needs is 2 mins of excel sheet work and small amount of logic to interpret numbers :) I shall leave the interpretation of numbers to you guys. The table is not formatted. Apologies for the same.
State 1999-2000 2005-2006 Increase in GDSP from 1999-2006 Avg, growth rate per year.
1 AndhraPr. 15507 26211 69.02689108 9.166666667
2 ArunachalPr. 14107 23788 68.62550507 9.266666667
3 Assam 12269 18598 51.58529628 7.216666667
4 Bihar 5766 7875 36.57648283 5.483333333
5 Jharkhand 12747 19066 49.57244842 8.133333333
6 Goa 42296 70112 65.76508417 8.983333333
7 Gujarat 18864 34157 81.06976251 10.63333333
8 Haryana 21966 38832 76.78229992 9.966666667
9 HimachalPr. 20806 33805 62.47717005 8.45
10 J&K 13745 NA NA NA
11 Karnataka 16758 27291 62.85356248 8.6
12 Kerala 19294 30668 58.95096921 8.083333333
13 MadhyaPr. 12384 15647 26.34851421 4.216666667
14 Chattisgarh 11761 20151 71.3374713 9.75
15 Maharashtra 23340 37081 58.87317909 8.116666667
16 Manipur 13260 20326 53.28808446 7.816666667
17 Meghalaya 14611 23420 60.29019232 8.216666667
18 Mizoram 16443 NA NA NA
19 Nagaland 13819 NA NA NA
20 Orissa 10567 NA NA NA
21 Punjab 25611 36759 43.52817149 6.266666667
22 Rajasthan 13477 17863 32.54433479 5.4
23 Sikkim 14890 26412 77.38079248 10.03333333
24 TamilNadu 19378 29958 54.59799773 7.616666667
25 Tripura 14119 24706 74.98406403 9.833333333
26 UttarPradesh 9405 13262 41.01010101 5.933333333
27 Uttaranchal 13672 24585 79.82007022 10.31666667
28 WestBengal 15826 25223 59.3769746 8.116666667
29 A&Nislands 23728 34853 46.88553608 6.8
30 Chandigarh 41386 86629 109.3195767 13.1
31 Delhi 38682 61676 59.44366889 8.1
32 Pondicherry 30865 48477 57.0613964 8.1
33 AllIndia 15839 25956 63.87398194 8.616666667
8 March 2009 at 6:47 pm
Wow Palahalli and Heckler do have a lot of time on their hands!
8 March 2009 at 6:58 pm
Darling Heckler
Probably you never heard of the KISS principle — Keep It Simple and Stupid. It is very difficult to separate wheat from the chaff in your writings..unless everything is meant to be chaff dressed up in clothes of wheat :).
Kpriya,
That was a neat summary.. Thanks.
No one claims Modi is the sole reason for development in Gujarat..but to deny him his share of success is ridiculous.
BTW, why drag Gandhi and Godseji issue in this discussion???
8 March 2009 at 9:05 pm
Sandesh,
Thanks. Thats exactly what I wanna say, why not give Modi the credit if he deserves.
9 March 2009 at 9:04 am
@Sandesh, KISS is not Keep it Simple and Stupid. Rather it is Keep it Simple, Stupid! or Keep it Straight and Simple. Why would anyone keep it Stupid????
9 March 2009 at 10:31 am
Gujarat has actually fallen back on several development aspects under the last eight years.
Kharaharapriya i have sent links to prove that earlier.
9 March 2009 at 11:08 am
Sorry, I meant to thank Doddi Buddi for his advise, earlier.
Sandesh, I believe it goes like this; “Keep It Simple, Stupid!” But you’re on the dot with this one.
Gaby, its called multi-tasking. Comes with practice :)
kharaharapriya, “Why do you start the vicious cycle of Gandhi-Godse n all?”
- Wasn’t me :) But it was fun blasting holes in Heckler’s “data-bank”. Nice job with link-analysis yourself k-priya! All these links must be put under microscopes, I tell you.
Simple, you’re confused as usual. No one has said Gujarat was “Bihar” before Modi came along.
But I object to reactionary bull-shit like this line. This shows the Secular-Liberal Fascist mentality quite clearly.
“Gujarat also has been backward in many aspects of development and BJP has done nothing to change that.”
9 March 2009 at 11:54 am
Shenoy
Yes.. I slipped up.. its been long time since i read that quote :)
9 March 2009 at 1:12 pm
Simple,
What do you have to say about the planning commission data?? :)
Bolti bund?? :) Or do you want some help in mathematics and percentages??
None of your 14 links have any such growth rate comparisons. I have already refuted them. :) It only talked about gujrath, with absolute numbers. It didnt talk of before Modi after Modi. How other states compare etc? :) Even if it did, there would be lots of missing links which have been discussed..
First look at the planning commission data and come back to me.
Here are 2 more links for you:
1. “Planning Commission lauds Gujarat as a ’star performer’” http://www.gujaratindia.com/Media/newsdetail.aspx?News_id=1051
2. “And now SC pats Modi government” http://www.bjp.org/today/june_0206/june_0206_p_29.htm
I wonder how Heckler and Simple forget to search these out from Google. :)
I have very little time, but there are 1000 such links out there in google and check it yourselves.
9 March 2009 at 2:00 pm
Palahalli
You didn’t know where to hide, when Heckler was slamming you and your cheddi mates hollow claims, compltely unsubstantiated.
Yea, no one said Gujarat was Bihar before Modi.
But when our state BJP says it will follow Gujarat model of development, its an insult to the people of Karnataka.
Because Gujarat is way behind Karnataka in several aspects of development.
Gujarat should follow Karnataka model of development in education to healthcare and Information Technology and several others.
9 March 2009 at 4:20 pm
Quit while you still can Simple. Don’t talk any nonsense that comes to you’re mind.
9 March 2009 at 4:42 pm
pal~…,
Back as promised.
11. The link I’d presented states clearly that Dr. Hedgewar was disillusioned with violence & started a Hindu reformist organization.
Are you disputing that? Are you saying that he & the rss were pro-violence right from the start?
12. Have you looked up Liberal yet? Look it up please. You’re obviously looking up to me as a teacher, but you bellicose attitude isn’t aiding your learning.
Columbus lived in a time when the Church & Europeans still largely believed the Earth to be flat. He didn’t. He thought differently from the usually held view. Get it?
Edison? Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edison#Views_on_politics.2C_religion_and_metaphysics
Ready for your next lesson?
13. Can I ask you once again, at this point, to stop beating around the bush & gracefully admit when you’re beaten? Otherwise your arguments are so weak & insipid, even your rare fan would leave utterly disappointed.
14. Nehru must’ve really gotten around according to you… His Wife, Mountbatten’s Wife, stalin… any other bizzare but totally unsuccesful attempts at character assassination? :-)
15. Would he have…? Conjecture? You wanna go down that path or do you wanna stick to facts?
The fact is this: You’ve put your foot in your mouth. You have berated the Leftists, and then you’ve admitted your open admiration for a Leftist revolutionary!!!
Bhagat Singh didn’t care about the religious leanings of the men he was fighting for. This was because he was himself not a Hindu nationalist. His influences were Gandhiji & Communism.
And who says he isn’t remembered as a Communist? You? You are currently just a misinformed student in my class. Allow me to teach you. Read these links:
a) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagat_Singh
b) http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv3n1/bsingh.htm
c) http://pd.cpim.org/2006/0319/03192006_surjeet.htm
16. Already corrected you in my previous comment. You’re wrong as usual. About me, about Dr. Singh, about everything. You’re a sanghie… HOW CAN you not be wrong? :-)
17. No of course you’re not defending his conversion circus. You’re backing up his candidature & his election victories, despite your Hindu nationalist claims. Just HOW confused ARE you??? :-)
18. You still don’t see why you’re called Fascists? The World considers Dr. Singh a man of unquestionable integrity & you call him a liar?
And advani’s Gandhinagar residence, Dharmendra’s Bikaner residence, advani’s Rajya Sabha beginnings, do not mean anything to you. Bias? Or FASCIST! Do you get it?
19. I think I will end this one by pointing out your most laughable inconsistency yet…
1. You say that The Hindu is a chinese boot licker.
2. By that logic, you claim that P. Sainath is bereft of a conscience.
3. And you begin this conversation with me by quoting a link from a Hindu publication!!!!!!! Want a link people? Here: http://churumuri.wordpress.com/2009/01/31/gujarat-was-vibrant-long-before-narendra-modi/#comment-99170
Therefore I say that “You are not worth the time & effort that is being spent on you!!!” :-D
____________
Thank you Simple. Thank you Ashoka. Thank God for having blessed you with a Secular, Liberal, Intelligent upbringing. :-)
____________
Pal~…,
You’re so bloody inconsistent that I doubt you’ll be able to keep your word. I know you want to run by now. No one can take such absolute public humiliation. Unless they’re right-wingers, but I’ll be watching with interest to see if you have the spine to keep your word. Since you were previously laying claim to the possession of a spine…
1. Your indoctrinated little mind is incapable of understanding the Greatness of the man Tagore referred to as the Mahatma, and the country called Bapu. He inspires men like Mandela, Martin Luther King, Barack Obama. He is respected by minds like Einstein. He was an International Peace Award named after him. He made the cover of Time Magazine 3 times during his lifetime & was their Man of the Year. The UN Internatinoal Day of Non-Violence is dedicated to his legacy; it happens on 2nd October. HE is the Father of the Nation.
Haven’t you guys tried hard enough for over 60 years to kill him then belittle him??? Have you succeeded? No. Will you? No.
2. I don’t think so… Read again.
3. Nothing of the sort at all! In fact I stand vindicated. Simple, Ashoka have joined the voice that I’d raised. Not to mention, the owner of this blog, Dipankar & Ranjona. And there are others. But like I pointed out to you & the other readers, the poor indoctrinated Fascist that you are, you can only see what your saffron coloured glasses allow you to see! :-) You cannot see that a zillion people have exposed modi’s PR gimmickry, that RTI applications have shown him to selectively overstate/understate figures. You cannot see that he is a lying (RTI, VGGIS figures, Famer suicide data), corrupt (bootlegging) man.
But we can see it. And how long do you think he will last with people like us finding out more & more about his lies?
As for the link… When there is a link to the WHOLE Data, right above the table for interested souls to look at, why would one want a Disclaimer? There was no talk of a disclaimer at all! I asked you to look through the link & the “comments”! (Look at Jai’s last comment). You only picked out a section of what I said. Are you deliberately trying to misquote me? Sinking THAT low, huh…? :-)
4. Now you’re running around again. Stay. Sit. And talk.
The claim of your ilk has been that modi deserves a pat on the back because a) he brought development to Gujarat, that he is making it surge ahead of other states. Isn’t it?
If you say Yes, to the above, then you contradict yourself here.
And everything that I have said or the 15 odd links that we’ve presented is TRUE.
b) If you claim however that Gujarat was ahead of other states, even before modi was on the scene, then we are in agreement.
modi therefore has done nothing different & does not warrant the effusive praise, the pats etc. that are being sent his way. It’s just an excellently orchestrated PR lie!
Which one is it? a) or b)? Do you dare pick one?
5. Ah… You’re back at your “Avoidance Behavoiur” again? I ask you to look at paras 11 to 15 & you start by quoting para 16! If you learn to read the sections that are being referred to, maybe you will see the truth. Or maybe you don’t want to see the truth. You just obdurately want to believe what you want to believe. One question: Are you a truth seeker or are you on the payroll of modi’s propaganda committee? Because to not be able to acknowledge the truth only suggests that you belong to the latter… :-)
6. Dwindling confidence… Bharat Jhala is from within Gujarat. There is dissent within the Gujarat bjp. And there is new information about modi’s failures every single week in the papers. Don’t talk to me about Leadership. You have no idea of what I do for a living… :-)
modi wins in gujarat because of the successful communalization of gujarat’s populace started by gowalkar in 1968, celebrated with a riot in 1969, and one “overseen” by his devotee modi in 2002. It is THAT which gets him the votes. And how long can that last? Really?
7. No dude. I’m here tackling every point you’ve made. You’re the one running around, refusing to see the parallel. I can help you with information if I’m your teacher. I can encourage you to think. I can’t do the thinking for you. Unless you want me to… :-)
8. I answered you question. Your stubborn, indoctrinated, little mind refuses to understand it.
If you looked up the definition of Liberal, you should be amply convinced of his Liberal credentials. As for secular, read this comment again. Slowly.
http://churumuri.wordpress.com/2009/01/31/gujarat-was-vibrant-long-before-narendra-modi/#comment-99412
9. :-) Run dude run…
10. Your contesting his method doesn’t matter. Refer to point # 1 in this comment. :-)
PS: That’s just your resentful rightist way of looking at it. Only the likes of you can sink so low as to ignore the greatness of great men.
Glad to see your back. :-)
So much for spine. Can’t even stand & fight for what they believe in. Or is it that somehow, your beliefs may have been shaken a little due to the plethora of data & arguments that you saw? Anyway…
______
K~priya…
Good work.
To illustrate my basic point, I’ll just ask you this set of questions:
(i) Do you believe that Gujarat is the ONLY state that is doing well?
(ii) Do you believe that Gujarat’s progress is a recent phenomenon? (As opposed to all of us are claiming that Gujarat has always been prosperous)
(iii) Do you believe that modi is the only CM that is charge of a fast growing state?
I think your answers (& mine) will lie in your responses to these 3 questions. Once you’ve answered these, we’ll take this discussion ahead. (You seem like a less extremist type than palahalli. Our conversation may actually go somewhere…)
In the meantime, let me quickly address these:
- Have you read Dipankar Gupta’s article with an unbiased mind? Please read it. From top to bottom. Then read again, paying special attention to what has been said in paras 2, 3, 7, 8 & 9. And let me know if you think differently.
- Marketing is fine. Lies isn’t. Naidu too was the darling of the media, but no one suggested that he should be made PM. And he didn’t even have a tainted record. My point? The PR activity is possibly a cover-up for the 2002 failure.
Remember the India Shining Campaign? Did it lead anywhere? To defeat, yes!
- Farmer suicides were brought up to show 2 points:
a) That the Gujarat Govt. was hiding figures until activist Bharat Jhala resorted to the RTI act.
b) To show that all is NOT WELL in Gujarat!!!! And that this fact shouldn’t be ignored by those who think modi has done a lot for Gujarat!!! Letting poor farmers die by hundreds doesn’t speak well for a Govt. & it’s CM!!! Agree? (It’s a simple Yes or No question. No need to go all over the place with an answer please. Do remember that in case you disagree & refuse to see any wrong with modi, you are just palahalli in a new bottle…)
- Nasscom link: Just get rid of the bracket at the end & read the para mentioned above please.
- Please consider that you may be interpreting the PC data a little selectively, to suit your own motives? :-)
______
Gaby… Committment to a cause. :-)
____
Sandesh darling… I’ve heard of it, but the way Ananth Shenoy put it, not the way you did. Get your acronyms right sweetheart, before you put your foot deep down your throat again. OK?
And I prefer unravelling the complex. The simple is for the simple-minded. :-)
Read Dipankar Gupta’s article. Focus on the paras I mentioned to K~Priya. Then ask that question.
____
Ananth,
Thanks. Care to correct his other misconceptions?
____
Simple,
Post them again please?
___
palahalli…
Back so soon? LOL! :-D
Put the links under the microscope!!! Please!!! Only if you analyse them threadbare will you be able to see the truth in them!!! Go ahead. Be my guest!
____
Simple,
Thank you for making excellent points.
9 March 2009 at 9:14 pm
Heckler
Now that you have totally steam rolled Palahalli and gang, could you please elaborate on the Hindu secular majority. And the need for all like minded to join together for a bright and prosperous India.
We should all learn to respect the Father of the Nation, and any disrespect will not be tolerated for a person who not only was instrumental in getting India freedom, but also died a martyrs death.
Thank you Heckler ji. May your tribe increase.
9 March 2009 at 9:49 pm
Well this is totally off track but I had to tell- When I told an Italian man at a party thet he seemed to have too much of free time on his hands he replied that it was only because he hadnt met a pretty girl till he met me ( Blush blush). When I say the same thing to two Indian men here both pat themselves on their backs with the conservative (PH) calling it multitasking and the Liberal calling it caommittment to a cause- both seem to think flirting is bad for health!!!!
9 March 2009 at 10:22 pm
Heckler – I think I’ll stick around and save you some smug satisfaction.
Btw, why do you rant and rave so much? That’s what dictatorial thugs do. You must relax.
Commenters will observe the fact that length of posts/No. of points have reduced. The simple reason is because inconvenient truths have been avoided by Shri Heckler.
For ref, please start from – Post Dated 7 March 2009 at 12:01 pm
1. On RSS –
I have already proved how the RSS was started AFTER the 1923 Nagpur riots.
Why are you so very dogmatic about violence? Sad. Fortunately, Hedgewar wasn’t like that. He wasn’t like Gandhi. He tried the revolutionary path and saw it fail for reasons of practicality.
Indian revolutionaries couldn’t hold onto secrets, they quibbled amongst themselves, they did not have easier access to arms and Hedgewar also realized that this was caused by a deeper malaise amongst Hindus. He recognized flaws in Hindu character that made such dissention the rule. He then started thinking along how he can help remove these flaws. The birth of the RSS is the child of such thought.
There is no RSS related publication or study that will tell you that Hedgewar was against violence per se. He was a practical man.
This extract from you’re own link will explain better.
“He came to believe that although the revolutionaries had immense determination, in a country of continental proportions it was impossible to instigate an armed insurrection. After completing his graduation, he returned to Nagpur, disillusioned with the armed movement. In his memoirs, the third chief of RSS, Balasahab Deoras narrates an incident when Hedgewar saved him and others from following the path of Bhagat Singh and his comrades.”
2. Columbus and Edison – Liberals?
C Columbus – “Columbus lived in a time when the Church & Europeans still largely believed the Earth to be flat.”
- This is utter nonsense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth
Please refer to – “The Flat Earth and Columbus”
And was he a Liberal? For light on this question, please read what an accomplished Liberal has to say about Columbus.
http://www.jewishachievement.com/bios/chomsky.html
“Christopher Columbus “discovery” of American: which Chomsky says may have led to 100 million deaths as the Spanish, and others, plundered the Caribbean, South, Central and North America, in the process destroying the indigenous population. In one interview, Chomsky said, “Columbus was one of the main specialists in genocide during that period.” (Presumably 1492 to the early 1500s.)”
****
TA Edison – Views on politics, religion and metaphysics (From the same link)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edison#Views_on_politics.2C_religion_and_metaphysics
- There is nothing in here to suggest even remotely, that Edison was a Liberal. In fact, he is not even an atheist and defends himself against such an accusation. All one can say is that his “nature as God” concept is closer to Sanatana Dharma than it is to the Abrahamic trio.
Here’s another – http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/edison.htm
“Economically and politically, Edison was conservative;”
Btw, he also invented the Electric Chair. There is an old film showing Edison actually testing it on a condemned criminal.
3. On Nehru – I notice you have avoided reference to his speech on Stalin. I take it you’re not disputing its authenticity. Enough said.
4. On Bhagat Singh – Wiki says he was influenced by Communism and Anarchism. So, was he both? Or either?
The other two leftist links, I have ignored. You would not want me to paste links from the Organizer for authentication, would you?
His Last Wish
“Bhagat is said to have mentioned to Randhir Singh, prison inmate, Gadhar revolutionary and a known figure in Sikh circles, that he (Bhagat Singh) had shaven “hair and beard under pressing circumstances” and that “It was for the service of the country” that his companions “compelled him to give up the Sikh appearance” adding to it that he was “ashamed”. He is seen with full unshorn hair in his later prison pictures and had expressed, as last wish before being hanged, the desire to get “amrit” from Panj Pyare including Randhir Singh and to adorn full 5 k’s. However, his last wish, of getting “amrit” from Panj Pyare was not granted by the British”
Sentiments of a Communist?
There is a reason I posted Bhagat Singh’s birth and death dates. September 27, 1907–March 23, 1931
Communist excesses had not yet started on massive scales. Mao was not yet on the world stage and Stalin was consolidating his power after Lenin’s death. He had not yet signed his pact with Hitler although he had started his purges.
Again, you have avoided my direct queries on how he would have viewed Communist betrayals. It’s really not difficult to imagine, is it?
Bhagat Singh was certainly not influenced by Gandhi.
5. On Dharmendra, I am doing neither. I have neither supported his candidature nor his conversion. All I have said is he fought and won the LS seat.
6. On Advani et al, you still don’t get the point. Indira Gandhi fought from Chikmagalur, but then she fought and WON her seat. Far be it for MM Singh to descend Democratic levels! He is pleased to please Sonia G.
7. On my using links from The Hindu
- You have no clue how to argue. You’re ignorance shows up. Remember this line in any argument.
“Anything YOU say CAN and WILL be used AGAINST YOU in a court of law”.
If The Hindu provides me evidence to boost my argument, then I WILL use it. I also retain the RIGHT to dispute any evidence that is provided by my opponents, from the same source, in this case, The Hindu.
But, again. You have avoided the much more substantial charge wrt Sainath’s lack of conscience.
More later.
9 March 2009 at 11:18 pm
Heckler,
First before I answer your questions, would mind to mend your ways and apologise for selective representation of facts on GDSP and misleading readers?
>>(i) Do you believe that Gujarat is the ONLY state that is doing well?
Did Modi make such a statement, Did I make ? :) Currently its doing far better than any other state.
>> (ii) Do you believe that Gujarat’s progress is a recent phenomenon? (As opposed to all of us are claiming that Gujarat has always been prosperous)
Who made a statement that Gujrat was not progressive before? Did Modi say so, Did I say so or Palahalli say so? :)
Could you also define the term “Progressive” please? Each individual has his own way of interpreting the same?
Also provide relevant and comprehensive governmental data links on the same, for before 1999.
>>(iii) Do you believe that modi is the only CM that is charge of a fast growing state?
From the planning commission data, surely looks like he is on TOP. Rite? :) Doesnt it seem so?
Haryana next.
>> – Marketing is fine. Lies isn’t.
Now looks who’s preaching about truth, integrity and lies :)
The fact that you mis-represented facts about Gujrat’s GDSP speaks volumes about your integrity. So how can you take a high moral stance?
Could you atleast apologize for biased and selective reporting on the GDSP numbers?
Regarding the farmer suicides?
Please read the report here.
http://ncrb.nic.in/ADSI2007/home.htm
I assume, you are referring to this link or a similar link on Farmer suicides.
I wanna know how the magic number of 487 was arrived at?
If you could look @ Page.243 . It says Total number of suicides due to Farming/Agriculture is 317 in Gujrath.
And you guys forget the fact that, there are different reasons for farmer suicides which is listed like mental illness, death of dear ones etc etc listed in the document . There is no mention of what percentage of 317 is because of agriculture business losses. So the real number can be <317.
If you are referring to this link http://www.indianexpress.com/news/suicide-rate-shoots-up-in-vibrant-gujarat/414137/ which reports the 317 as correct . But it lies when it says National average rate of suicides is 3.9% and Gujrat 10.8%.
Both are blatant lies. If you look at the document, you will find. National average is 10.8% and Gujrath 10%.
Please have some common sense to point at links and understand them before making a fool out of yourselves.
Now lets come to Mr.Dipankar Gupta.
>> But wait! What is so great about this statistic? In 1994-95, Gujarat surged at the rate of 13.2 per cent. Where was Modi then?
Wow. Mr Gupta conveniently forgets that during the post reforms period most of the states had superlative growth rates.
He also forgets in 2003-2004 it was 15.2% and obviously Modi was the CM then
>> In the years between 1994 and 2001, Gujarat’s state domestic product registered a growth average of 10-13 per cent.
>>Nothing really. In spite of decades of growth as usual, as much as 93 per cent of Gujarat’s workforce toils in the informal sector. This is why growth is not always development.
Isnt he really contradicting himself. He uses GDSP where he feels it will highlight his point and conveniently discards it when not needed :)
>> Gujarat fell one place in 2003-04, and now ranks below Kerala, Punjab, Tamil Nadu, Maharashtra and Karnataka. In terms of rural prosperity Gujarat is at number five and well behind Punjab, the front ranker.
He writes the article in 2009 and talks of 2003-2004. How naive? Whats the current status, say how does it fare say during 2007-2008?
It has surely improved according to the latest IMPACT feature DVD on Gujrath.
That’s what gonna happen if a sociologist tries to don the hat of an economist :)
Sandesh/Palahalli,
Buddies. Seriously, go through the data you ll have a hearty laugh :)
10 March 2009 at 12:08 am
8. More humbug on Gandhi and even less substance. Please spare me the propaganda. I wonder what Einstein thought of Gandhi’s advice to the Jews in Europe. Why indeed did Einstein “run away” from Germany instead of using Gandhi’s prescribed soul-force against Hitler?
Intellectual honesty demands you answer this question instead of ignoring this too, like all the rest.
9. On Modi and his “lies”
- Are you that desperate for support and certificates from one and all? Can you not rely on you’re intelligence and data? I don’t need to believe a “zillion” people when they assert Black as White.
10. On the “Link”.
- Are you denying you said this?
“you will note that it’s stated clearly that the table is only a few of the constituencies.”
11. On Modi and praise
- We’ll let the voters of Gujarat take that call :)
And the manner you frame you’re “close-ended” questions, is embarrassing.
12. On Farmer’s suicide Link
- There is nothing wrong in taking Sahu’s suggestion. Btw, have you gotten to the IE follow up yet?
But yes, you should bank on the dissent in the BJP for you’re success. Anything less than this is harmful to Liberal-Secularism. Dream on about riots of 69 & 2002.
13. On Gandhi being “Liberal” & “Secular”
- Frankly, I don’t care. I would still oppose his policies of Non-Violence and anti-Industrialization. I would still oppose his dictatorship during the time he was in the Congress. It wouldn’t comfort me a wee bit if I found him a Conservative.
And this blackmail :)
“Do remember that in case you disagree & refuse to see any wrong with modi, you are just palahalli in a new bottle…”
Cheap.
10 March 2009 at 12:26 am
Gaby – Sometimes men can miss the most obvious hint ;)
10 March 2009 at 12:30 am
kharaharapriya, I agree. At first, I found the links such a bore…but that’s a huge mistake. When one looks at them closely, one realizes deception is endless. Good job on the investigation.
10 March 2009 at 4:04 am
Kpriya
Seriously man… As if wading through mile long posts of heckler itself is not a punishment, I even checked on his/her links. And I am thinking, “What the hell do these links prove??”…
http://churumuri.wordpress.com/2009/01/31/gujarat-was-vibrant-long-before-narendra-modi/#comment-99170
is just a link to Pal’s comment quoting figures from hindu..which Pal has a right to use!
http://churumuri.wordpress.com/2009/01/31/gujarat-was-vibrant-long-before-narendra-modi/#comment-99412
is a link to his/her own comment …something to do with “secular”….but ends up confusing (now, heckler..don’t come back saying, “you did not understand”…I am just confused as to what the heck are you saying here!)
“You cannot see that a zillion people have exposed modi’s PR gimmickry, that RTI applications have shown him to selectively overstate/understate figures.”
What “zillion” people? what PR gimmickry? what RTI ? … no proofs eh ?
“Was the last Gujarat Assembly Election closer than we think?”
This was debated hotly when modi won the elections last year.. right in this churumuri forum itself (sorry.. i am too lazy to find the link!). And looking at the number of seats won by modi, I’d say it was a great victory for modi. see the following for “such-a-closer-election”
http://www.searchindia.com/search/gujarat-assembly-election-results.html
Case khatam… moreover this is so irrelevant to the topic at hand
“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_states_ranking_by_households_having_electricity”
Looking at this link only convinces me that in matters of electricity, gujarat and karnataka are on par. The ones above them like mizoram, sikkim, haryana are much smaller states compared to gujarat and karnataka. Also, gujarat is in top 10 ( 9 in fact)… not too bad eh ;)
“http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/In_Gujarat_if_you_are_not_with_CM_God_save_you_Manmohan/articleshow/2605798.cms”
http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/modis-claims-of-power-surplus-are-fake-sibal/248688/
both are congress links… sort of isomorphic.. they of course claim what they claim!! .. moreover, it was election time for godssake!!! what do you expect !!
Anyway, I’m exhausted… (Kpriya.. I blame you for making me going through all these links.. but derived a good laugh.. so, it compensates ;) )
Heckler
Sir/Memsaab ….. your links are as useless as your confused drivel is! No more from my side.. Kpriya’s summaries are
a) to the point
b) valid (taken from unbiased and proper sources)
c) easier to understand
d) make the point that, while gujarat has been a developed state all along, Modi has not turned it into a bihar.. at the very least, he has maintained it as much as he could.. you don’t want to give him any credit ??
10 March 2009 at 4:07 am
pal and heckler
while we are at it,
lets stop discussing gandhi and godseji. They are not relevant here :)
10 March 2009 at 10:48 am
Spicy-food Lover, FriendsVille and like-minded fiends,
Nice to see Sekular_Heckler and Extremely-Simple getting their just deserts! Any body who mindlessly trumpets the non-achievements of MMS, Sonia, Kapil Sibal, H.R. Bharadwaj, P Chidambaram should not be taken seriously. But you guys and gals did and bested them. Great going.
10 March 2009 at 11:43 am
Palahalli
Your (yaaawn) postings are complete gobbledegook.
Take a leaf out of Heckler and bring some clarity into your thoughts.
10 March 2009 at 12:58 pm
Sandesh – Got it :)
10 March 2009 at 1:24 pm
Heckler,
More for you.
>> In fact, on the Human Development Index, Gujarat fell one place in 2003-04, and now ranks below Kerala, Punjab, Tamil Nadu, Maharashtra and Karnataka. In terms of rural prosperity Gujarat is at number five and well behind Punjab, the front ranker.
He is a liar. The report came out in 2004, and comparison study was done for timeframe 1991-2001.
Modi had just come to power then. Do you think he degraded it in such a small time 1 year since he ascended to power?
For more check this link
http://grcgujarat.org/excel/Development%20Indices/Human%20Development%20Index,%20Gujarat%20and%20India.pdf
Very typical of secularists to twist and contort the data to suit their means.
Here you go. Who told Modi isnt making efforts to improve HDI?
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jan/07gujpoll.htm
Look what Montek Singh has to say here http://www.igovernment.in/site/gujrat-2008-09-plan-pegged-at-rs-21000/ .
Ahluwalia also complimented the state government for encouraging public private partnership in development of social infrastructure and appreciated on efforts to improve human development index and rural development strategy.
The problem with you and simple is you are trying to win a war, but I am just making efforts to find the truth
DB/ Palahalli/ Sandesh,
I wonder now, why churumuri gave so much “bhaav” to Dipankars article.
10 March 2009 at 4:02 pm
k~priya…
Allow me to address your queries first.
I think you will give me this much credit that I do not speak unless I am certain of something. I had downloaded the file into Excel & compared the numbers before I referred you to it. It’s just that you happen to interpret data in a different way than those who are not busy defending modi.
My looking at the file didn’t take away Gujarat’s %ages. The statement I referred to clearly says:
What was being contested is the exclusive hailing of the Gujarat CM as a hero, when Haryana, Goa & Jharkhand (which incidentally wasn’t even a state in 1999!) have shown great performances as well! THAT was the question! Or one part of it at least!
(You know as well as I do that there are many many stories within a data set. One must focus on what is being discussed instead of looking for sub-plots. That is called twisting of data. If you want twisted data sub-plots, here are two:
i. If you take out Jharkhand’s 1999-2000 figures, considering that it only came into existence in Nov. 2000, it instantly jumps to the # 1 spot in the growth rate averages. Of course the per capita aggregates tell a different story. I’m trying to illustrate to you the dangers of looking at data selectively.
ii. Gujarat’s greatest growth has come under Dr. Singh’s or the UPA’s tenure. Pre 2004 growth rates are lower than post 2004.)
Hopefully, you get my point about data telling us many many things.
I’m not asking for much from you guys. All I’m saying is this: Admit that modi isn’t the cat’s whiskers. That Gujarat growth rates are not entirely due to him, and that other states have done equally well if you examine the data properly. Admit that he has failed on many many fronts, and that he should be standing trial instead of being celebrated the way he is. Is that fair, unbiased assessment too much to ask for? From someone who is obviously intelligent?
Waiting to hear from you on this before proceeding any further.
10 March 2009 at 4:10 pm
Err… Sandesh…
I’m sorry for not waiting for Mr. Shenoy to correct you this time. Saving him the trouble.
You’ve put the ji against the wrong name… :-)
This blog has been such an extremely rewarding, learning experience for you, hasn’t it? ;-)
10 March 2009 at 4:17 pm
Ashokaji,
:-)
It’s actually very simple. Those of us who choose to view ourselves as human beings first, global citizens second, Indians third & Hindu/Muslim/Sikh/Isaai only much later, do not have the problems you have witnessed here.
We do not hurl abuses at people for being adherents of secularism.
It is the Secular majority, Hindu & otherwise, who are responsible for India’s morality, culture, growth, global standing etc. No one else is. People like to lay claim to it but they’re lying. You remember what Sam Pitroda had to say about the bjp didn’t he? :-)
10 March 2009 at 5:21 pm
Gaby…
:-)
Not Italian. Didn’t get a good look at you yet. ;-)
Flirting on hold till such time…
And maybe you didn’t look close enough… palahalli is flirting with disaster. Espousing the cause of violent, khaki shorts clad, deceitful propagandistas. You think that is a mild flirtation???
______
palahalli…
So much for “spine” huh? Can’t stick to your word?
Anyway… for me any opportunity to catch you with your pants down is a bonus, so welcome back. Here we go.
Stop playing to your gallery, get to the point. :-)
1. You know something. If you had a solid enough point, you wouldn’t need to explain this one for so long.
It’s expressed very simply in the para you quote. Hedgewar stepped away from violence disillusioned by it. And saved others from going down the path of Bhagat Singh’s comrades!
Sprite pi meri jaan…! ;-) Gala sookh raha hoga na…? ;-)
2. You STILL haven’t looked up Liberal, have you?
Dude… do everyone a favour, look it up. You will spare all the readers here the rubbish you’re spouting, if you do that one simple thing. look it up. Please?
3. Everyone knows your propensity to jump to conclusions. You’re gullible & that is what led to your facile indoctrination. There are 3 reasons for me not wanting to discuss stalin-Nehru with you: Earliest, I wanted to keep you on the “modi’s many failures” track. Secondly, since you were saying it, I couldn’t help but doubt it (knowing your gullibility & leanings). And thirdly, your revel in the character assassination of great men. I don’t want to give you an opportunity to do any more of that.
Isn’t it enough that I threw data in your face on your last claim?
Isn’t it enough that your face by now is probably twitching at the anticipation of still more data being thrown at it?
4. Ah… The classic George Bush question: You’re either with us or against us! You think human beings are unidimensional?
Why’re you living in denial. The Wiki link clearly states that he was influenced by the writings of
You think your denial will change things??? I can’t help but pity you…
You want links from other sources? Sample the 4th para from the bottom here and this!
And have you ever read his pamphlet titled “Why I am an atheist”?
And yes, he walked away from the path that Gandhiji’s movement propounded, but he did walk that path before that. To deny that Gandhiji wasn’t one of his early influences is madness.
5. Good. Fair point.
6. Look, you’re not getting the point, so let me explain it to you. I’m basically exposing your double standards. advani has spent a lifetime in partisan politics; communalism, opportunism & being a turncoat are his trademarks. Dr. Singh has been an academic & a technocrat all his life. Both of them entered Parliament through the Rajya Sabha. advani contested the lok sabha much later. If you can accept that kind of a beginning wrt advani, why’re you making a fuss about Dr. Singh? Double standards?
7. I have nothing more to add here. I have exposed your double standards & your total hypocrisy. I don’t care to do it again. I am content to watch you helplessly attempt todefend your humungous blunder, and snigger to glory. So much for your spine, your beliefs, your Hindu-derision! Case closed!
(Do you even realize that people are LAUGHING at you right now???)
8. Allow me to answer that for you. I’m assuming you respect the committment of an armyman, his ideals, his patriotism, his job…?
Do you walk down the path he walks down?
Similarly Einstein may not have chosen to walk down the exact same path that Gandhiji did. He chose to be a scientist instead of an agent of social & political change.
Read this: http://www.indiavideo.org/text/gandhi-in-the-words-of-albert-einstein-141.php
What is your purpose in questioning this well known fact? Are you (apart from trying to demean Gandhiji) also trying to demean Einstein? Karo beta karo. Like I’ve said before… Every word of yours only exposes you more. :-D
9. More denial…? :-)
10. I am saying that the dishonest you is trying to selectively quote me. Please note that I mentioned the “comments” when I said that. Read it again in case you’ve missed it. And more pity on you if you’re deliberately trying to misquote me. But at least here, you’re in character. :-)
11. Let’s do that. And the courts. :-)
And yes, my purpose is to embarass you. :-)
12. It’s pretty shameful that the lives of 500 farmers mean less to you than one modi…
13. Your views on Gandhiji do not matter. Like I’ve said before, your boys tried killing him & are now trying to kill his legacy. You haven’t succeeded yet. And you will not. HOW can you hope to win against an adherent of Dharma & Satya? How can you hope to negate Satyamev Jayate?
As for “cheap”… In my opinion, your being a right-winger & bringing injustice & disgrace to this great land (& it’s great children) is infinitely cheaper than anything anyone can say or do to you. You obviously don’t see any cheapness in deriding Gandhiji or Nehru or Dr. Singh, or in ignoring modi’s faults; but you can instantly spot cheapness in this conversation! LOLOL! How consistent!!!
You’re just giving people more fodder for them to laugh at you.
Go away man, while you can still salvage some pride.
10 March 2009 at 5:24 pm
Heckler,
>> What was being contested is the exclusive hailing of the Gujarat CM as a hero, when Haryana, Goa & Jharkhand (which incidentally wasn’t even a state in 1999!) have shown great performances as well!
Now, you should tell me who’s hailing the CM of Gujarat as a hero?
Isnt it the media? Please dont tell me that the Haryana CM wont market his governmental achievements when he goes to polls. :)
You should tell me when Modi sells his story does he say other states are doing bad? :)
When BJP sells Modis story does it say other states are doing bad? :)
I see no wrong whatsoever why Modi shouldnt market his achievements? Its better than taking credit for 3 oscars for slumdog millionaire, isnt it?
The GDSP data clearly proves Gujarat government is better than Haryana and Goa. Doesnt it? Its clear that the per-capita gap between goa and gujarat is decreasing.
>> ii. Gujarat’s greatest growth has come under Dr. Singh’s or the UPA’s tenure. Pre 2004 growth rates are lower than post 2004.)
Lets accept your argument for the time being even though its stupid. Will Dr.Singh take responsibilities for all other factors where Gujarat has failed? Will the UPA government take responsibility?
Its a known fact that post 2002 riots the investment climate in Gujarat took a beating.
BTW Gujarat recorded the highest GDSP in 2003-2004 with 18.7% as per the data, the final year of NDA government.Isnt it? Or is it that as soon as Dr.Singh took over in a few days Gujarat GDSP shot up? Could you also support your statement as to what Dr.Singh did to aid the exemplary GDSP of Gujarat?
>> i. If you take out Jharkhand’s 1999-2000 figures, considering that it only came into existence in Nov. 2000, it instantly jumps to the # 1 spot in the growth rate averages. Of course the per capita aggregates tell a different story. I’m trying to illustrate to you the dangers of looking at data selectively.
Your question of rising Jharkand to #1 spot doesnt arise because, it has not been consistent in performance. It shot up to 35% in 2004-2005, but look at all other years its been dismal and less than that of Gujarat government. There is something called variance in statistics, hope you understand that :)
Now tell me who’s been selective and twisting the facts? :)
Variance for Haryana is better, but that of Gujarat isnt bad either and its far better than Jharkand any day. Do the math for yourselves.
As you said there are multiple dimensions to look at data :)
>> I’m not asking for much from you guys. All I’m saying is this: Admit that modi isn’t the cat’s whiskers. That Gujarat growth rates are not entirely due to him, and that other states have done equally well if you examine the data properly. Admit that he has failed on many many fronts, and that he should be standing trial instead of being celebrated the way he is. Is that fair, unbiased assessment too much to ask for? From someone who is obviously intelligent?
Will you admit that he surely stands in the top league amongst the CMs?
Will you admit Modi didnt make a statement that he has created a utopia of sorts in Gujarat?
Will you admit that Modi is trying to work on the weaker issues like HDI?
>> Admit that he has failed on many many fronts, and that he should be standing trial instead of being celebrated the way he is.
Nice way of diverting from the topic. We are discussing Modi’s administration here. The law will take its own course. He is innocent till proven guilty. When this statement applies to many goonda ministers in UPA, is it wrong to apply the same logic for Modi. I dont wanna digress into this topic. Lets stick to what we are discussing.
BTW when you say “many many fronts” could you please quantify your many manys :)
Looks like you have mellowed down a lot from the “Aap rehne dijiye, aap se nahin hoga ” attitude:)
BTW you still have many more answers to give. :)
10 March 2009 at 5:42 pm
Sandesh…
Choosing to selectively see what one wants to see isn’t the same thing as looking for the truth…
I’ve responded to K~priya above. Maybe you too should read that comment.
1. You haven’t seen Bharat Jhala’s RTI application link on the 489 farmer suicides in Gujarat? Here’s the link: http://www.hindu.com/2007/10/14/stories/2007101456521400.htm
2. The rampant illegal, bootlegging that points to a corrupt Gujarat administration? Link? Here: http://www.ahmedabadmirror.com/index.aspx?page=article§id=3&contentid=20090113200901130345311637687dc5c§xslt=
You want more links?
3. Here’s one very interesting one that explores the PR blitz angle: http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1154051
4. Gujarat’s record on Health? Read here: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/gujarat-10th-state-with-low-infant-mortality-rate/382124/
There ARE a zillion others. It’s just that you are choosing to dismiss them as being “congress links”. Even if you don’t respect the TOI, please give the Indian Express the respect they deserve, instead of casting aspersions on it’s honest journalistic core. They’re not being biased. Why are you?
To answer your queries (if they can be called that):
a) I’ve replied to K~priya, explaining to him the pitfalls of selective viewing of data. Read that comment please. And the links I’ve presented once again should hopefully convince you of my “to the point” approach.
b) This depends totally on whether you are willing to shed your bias… :-) Those links are from our leading national dailies.
c) You may have a point here, but even if I did break it up (like the article on Opinionated), there’s no guarantee that you would’ve shed your bias & believed me. Is there?
d) I don’t think K~priya has made that point yet. I’m waiting to hear him admit that.
Let me ask you: Is not turning a prospering state into a Bihar enough to celebrate a CM as the next best thing since sliced bread???
Have other CM’s not done anything?
The strangest thing is that among your friends is a man who blindly believes that modi has brought gujarat forward, but isn’t willing to bow to Dr. Manmohan Singh for having taken the country forward.
If this is not bias Sandesh, what is?
10 March 2009 at 5:51 pm
One last link for you to read through please. Pay special attention to the last 3 paragraphs please. Even closer attention to the second last para. Is this your hero???
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=ViewsSectionPage&id=39842235-9090-46c4-9d64-e94d028c06f7&&Headline=Dial+M+for+moral+crisis
10 March 2009 at 7:06 pm
Heckler
“They’re not being biased. Why are you?”
What I meant was that they have reported election news… which sibal and MMS said during the election time… Its not that they have gone and done some investigative journalism.
BTW, why I should NOT respect TOI and “at least” respect IE ? Do you mean to say that you trust IE more than TOI (else, you wouldn’t have told me not to respect it) ? … So, why quote from TOI at all ??
“’ve responded to K~priya above. Maybe you too should read that comment.”
Saw that and you have chosen to avoid all questions of him and start a new digression. I don’t see any proper “response” from you to Kpriya’s questions!
“The strangest thing is that among your friends is a man who blindly believes that modi has brought gujarat forward, but isn’t willing to bow to Dr. Manmohan Singh for having taken the country forward.”
Not my problem Heckler… If you have any problem with my “friend”.. please talk to him. I want the sources (links) to be unbiased.. (we all are biased one way or other, aren’t we ??)
“There ARE a zillion others.”
Ok.. since you provided links this time, I will take a good look at that. I just wanted to say to you not to write without supporting links.. Hope thats not too much to ask from an “intelligent teacher” like you :-)
“I don’t think K~priya has made that point yet. I’m waiting to hear him admit that.”
True. It was my opinion and not Kpriya’s.. I take it back. My mistake.
“Have other CM’s not done anything?”
Look, its called marketing. And who says others have not done anything? Did I say that ? Did modi say that (these are what Kpriya has been asking). Its just that Modi markets well…So does Mu Ka (in the hindu). And all politicians (A Soni for example, claims credit for oscars, bringing gandhi’s articles back… so on). Who stops other cm’s from marketing themselves ??
BTW, I read your reply to my good friend Pal.. Except saying that he is in some “denial” you have not answered any of his questions…
Did you mean me in the last comment of yours ? I’m quoting from the second last para of your HT link…
“The International Food Policy Research Institute, in 2008, ranked Gujarat 69th in the ‘alarming’ category of global hunger. The National Family Health Survey III estimated that 42.4 per cent of children in Gujarat are suffering from stunted growth due to malnutrition, and about 47.4 per cent are underweight. Large developments projects have entailed massive displacement of tribal and slum residents.”
I am curious to know the positions of other states vis-a-vis gujarat. That is what is being contested here .. not modi’s actions in 2002 (the third last para of the above link..)… courts can/should handle that (I remember you are the one who said that first.. and somehow, you’ve made a 180 degree turnaround).
10 March 2009 at 7:28 pm
K~Priya…
So you will run around in circles but not address the one point that I am talking about. It’s a fairly straightforward Yes or No kind of answer. That’s all I want.
But if you wanna play it this way, so be it.
It’s certainly not the media. The media in my opinion is doing a fair job of reporting both sides of the story. The improved investment climate according to ratan tata & the lies of the VGGIS figues through RTI. Don’t blame the media.
The problem is people like you who’re flocking to defend modi when people in the media (whether it’s Dipankar Gupta or Churumuri) point out his failings! Why do you have a problem accepting the facts that are being brought to your notice?
- The GDSP data DOES NOT show that Gujarat’s performance is better. On GDSP aggregates, Gujurat is behind 3 states – Goa, Maharashtra & Haryana. That means that each person in these 3 states produces more than in each person in Gujarat. Doesn’t it?
Stop your defensive, deliberately misleading mumbo-jumbo on the gap decreasing between Goa & Gujarat. Goa’s GDSP is twice that of Gujarat’s! That’s like saying that Sehwag is catching up with Tendulkar’s number of centuries! You use data selectively. You like pointing out Gujarat’s growth rate, but deliberately ignore GDSP aggregates, where Gujurat is behind. You choose to talk of a (laughable) narrowing gap, but deliberately ignore the fact that Jharkhand since it’s inception has had a better growth rate than Gujarat’s! Why? Why this deliberate obdurate refusal to see certain facts? Are you too a victim of modi-mania? Of indoctrination?
- Your understanding is marred with the intense desire to defend modi. I had made that point only to illustrate to you that one shouldn’t draw selective conclusions from data. But you don’t seem to get that.
Sure I will question Dr. Singh on every front that he hasn’t been able to address. But will you blame modi for the failures in his state? Do you have the honesty & the integrity to do that?
You may want to refer to the (first 3 lines from the) above point on Dr. Singh again.
- If you’re talking of Variance, you should look at Gujarat’s too. Jharkhand has been up, up, up, up, down. Gujarat’s has been up, up, up, down, up. They both have one solitary blip.
Can we now get back to celebrating Jharkhand’s march in the growth rate averages over Gujarat & the others? Or does your heart not have enough grace to do that? “My heart beats only for Gujarat”, is it?
- Forget about what I’m willing to admit. Can we come back to the fact that those questions were meant for you to answer in simple Yes/No fashion? And that you’re displaying avoidance behaviour. Answer the questions. What are you afraid of? Why are you avoiding the answers?
I’ll answer each of your questions, but you have to do me the favour of answering mine first. :-)
(By the way, some of your questions have already been answered in the links I presented to Sandesh above.) :-)
- I’m SO GLAD you brought up the word “administration”. Do you care to define it. As you see it?
- Many Many fronts again is in each of the links presented throughout this article. A few of them are in the response to Sandesh above. Here are just some of the failures that we’ve spoken about & linked to, & that you seem to have conveniently forgotten:
Health: Infant Mortality
Controlling Corruption (Bootlegging)
Controlling Hunger (Here’s one more in addition to the one above)
Farmer Suicides
(Once you’ve defined Administration, will point out more areas. OK?)
- Possibly. I was trying a different approach as I’d mistakenly assumed you to be one of the open-minded moderates. I was wrong & have reverted to the only way one should talk to blinker-wearing right-wingers. :-)
- Have been blessed with the ability to answer any question that comes up in a debate. And I do not display avoidance behaviour. Unlike what you’ve done in response to my simple appeal to your logic. Barking up the wrong tree, was I? ;-)
10 March 2009 at 7:58 pm
Heckler
“So you will run around in circles but not address the one point that I am talking about. ”
Come come now…. its unfair to say that Kpriya is running around in circles.. when in fact, it was you who simply chose to pose a meta-question to his own queries!!
10 March 2009 at 8:00 pm
Kpriya
I am not sure as to why you want to spend time with Heckler anymore.. clearly it is of no use .. when Heckler asks
“Why do you have a problem accepting the facts that are being brought to your notice?”
The problem was precisely this….they were not undeniable facts.. they were to be contested and this is what Kpriya has done!!
10 March 2009 at 8:02 pm
“If you’re talking of Variance, you should look at Gujarat’s too. Jharkhand has been up, up, up, up, down. Gujarat’s has been up, up, up, down, up. They both have one solitary blip”
WOW…. Such a binary logic!!!!!!! Heckler… clearly you need to understand what does Variance means and how to quantify it!!!!!!!!
10 March 2009 at 9:32 pm
Heckler, I don’t know what you do for a living but teaching is certainly not it. If it is, God help you’re students!
1. Show me ANY RSS related publication that says Hedgewar was against violence per se. I’ll grant you this point if you can do that.
2. Thanks for admitting the truth about Columbus and Edison in you’re peculiar way :) That was gracious of you.
3. Thanks also for admitting Nehru’s Stalin fixation.
4. You unendingly shame Bhagat Singh by placing him on a platform populated by killers and usurpers of the worst kind.
You quote Chaman Lal who is so keen to harness Bhagat Singh’s “Communist” sympathies for his own treacherous cause.
Kuldip Nayar, otherwise a man no less prone to supping with the devil at least retains the basic honesty of Bhagat Singh being innocent of the true character of Communism and its animal farm. In that same linked book, he says,
“Little did they realize then that their God would fail 60 years later.”
Truly, this “God” had never succeeded.
When someone walks away from Gandhi, is it not madness to assert he was influenced by Gandhi?
As if to confirm my belief that Secular-Liberals are largely devoid of normal/natural human feelings of affection toward their own civilization and that they revel in disfiguring what Hindus love as their own, let me present two pieces of evidence.
A. “Those of us who choose to view ourselves as human beings first, global citizens second, Indians third & Hindu/Muslim/Sikh/Isaai only much later, do not have the problems you have witnessed here.”
- Obviously.
B. The lie about Bhagat Singh nailed by his own.
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1164039
5. Certainly MM Singh must have suffered a great deal while fighting hard for policies he actually believed in while working for hard-bound socialists :)
Its still early for bed-time stories buddy.
MM Singh is a confirmed spineless technocrat who is there only because someone put him there. Else, he would have been happily doing whatever he was, earlier. And this, you compare with Bhagat Singh? Shameful!
6. And you still have nothing to say about ‘conscientious” Sainath?
7. No. I’m not demeaning Einstein. He was a great scientist. A great human being not devoid of reason and common sense.
I’m just pointing to a pertinent fact. Btw, Gandhi wanted the Army disbanded.
Did he use Gandhi’s prescribed soul-force against Hitler? At least what about the time he wrote Roosevelt about the possibility of building the A Bomb? Soul-Force?
A simple answer from you would do.
8. “you will note that it’s stated clearly that the table is only a few of the constituencies.”
- How is this a “selective” quote?
9. Strange deduction on farmer’s deaths. Is that how easily you play with lives? Like numbers? Where did you get the impression that these deaths don’t bother me? On the other hand, its you’re propaganda that’s diverting everybody’s attention from the “solving” of this issue.
You seem more interested in getting Modi than in saving farmers’ lives. Else why does it not bother you that farmers are killing themselves across this country? Why don’t you speak of taking Sahu’s suggestion to its logical conclusion? Because you’re interest lies elsewhere.
You can laugh you’re guts out for all I care…but as long as you ignore these questions, it will remain an empty laugh :)
10 March 2009 at 9:39 pm
Heckler,
First answer my questions. Dont diverge from the topic. I have already talked about Dipankar Guptas biased attitude. You didnt bother to refute that.
What GDSP aggregate are you talking of?
Please define the metrics and how did you calculate that. We will take it forward.
Since we are discussing Modi, it only makes sense to look at growth rates to gauge Modis performance
Regarding Goa, I have pointed that even before 2000, Goa had twice the GDSP compared to Gujarat. That’s exactly where growth rate comes in to picture, in order to bring about an apples to apples comparison. I hope you know that much of mathematics and logic.
>> That’s like saying that Sehwag is catching up with Tendulkar’s number of centuries!
What’s your point? When they do team selection they look at the recent performance records. Just because say tendulkar has 43 centuries on his side and he hasnt scored more than 20 runs for the past 1 year, it doesnt guarantee him a seat in Indian team because of his past 43 century record. If sehwag has scored 800 runs in the past year and Sachin 200 , sehwag surely has a better chance. Isnt that analogous to “growth rate”?
>> – If you’re talking of Variance, you should look at Gujarat’s too. Jharkhand has been up, up, up, up, down. Gujarat’s has been up, up, up, down, up. They both have one solitary blip.
Haha. How naive and stupid. Variance measures, how much up and how much down over the mean. Go get your fundamentals correct. Its shows consistency. Lesser variance, greater consistency. I only wish you read my post correctly. I stated Haryana does better than Gujarat and Gujarat isnt far behind. Is this selective representation dear?
Regarding Farmer suicide. I have responded. Dare to reply back.
First come out clean on the links.
Corruption:
Did Modi claim that Gujarat is corruption free? Sure get the data on how states compare on corruption index. We ll debate for sure.
Here are few more links
http://www.hvk.org/articles/0505/59.html says “The Narendra Modi brand of governance has got an unexpected endorsement. The Rajiv Gandhi Foundation, headed by Sonia Gandhi, has adjudged Modi’s Gujarat as the Number 1 state in economic freedom index. ”
Check this http://www.rediff.com/money/2008/sep/24graft.htm
Corruption is a phenomenon all over India. If you could only show me 1 state which is corruption free?
Over here you find some excerpts based on a world bank report on e-governance in Gujarat. http://www.it.iitb.ac.in/~prathabk/egovernance/egov_success_stories_gujrat.html
Case of Gujarat interstate border checkposts: e-Governance causes reduction in corruption and increase in tax revenues.
Health: Infant Mortality, Controlling Hunger all come under HDI.
I wish you looked at the 2 links that i sent on HDI. Here you go again.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jan/07gujpoll.htm
“In the next five years, we will make sincere efforts to bring Gujarat’s human development index on a par with those of the developed countries,” Modi told newspersons at his residence.
Please revisit back after end of his term. Take stock of situation and then comment if Modi hasnt done anything to address HDI.
Look what Montek Singh has to say here http://www.igovernment.in/site/gujrat-2008-09-plan-pegged-at-rs-21000/ .
“Ahluwalia also complimented the state government for encouraging public private partnership in development of social infrastructure and appreciated on efforts to improve human development index and rural development strategy.”
Now Ahluwalia/Dr.Singh must be either lying or dipankar gupta must be speaking the truth. He is the Dr.Singhs right hand. And Dr.Singh is the chairman of planning commision isnt it?
Regarding your link on National family health survey and IFPRI research.
http://www.ifpri.org/pubs/cp/ishi08.pdf
Key Findings:
I will list out some of the Key findings.
1. Twelve of the 17 states fall into the “alarming” category.
Gujarat is one of the 12.
Its like most Indian states are in the alarming bin. Its not an isolated case about Gujarat. No one denies that. But the good thing is Modi has identified the issue and acknowledged it. Didnt he in the links above?
2. Inclusive economic growth and targeted strategies to ensure food sufficiency,reduce child mortality and improve child nutrition are urgent priorities for all states in India.
3. India has consistently ranked poorly on the Global Hunger Index.
Let Congress take moral responsibility for they have ruled our country for like 50 years now? Why hasnt the media highlighted this?
4. not a single state in India falls in the ‘low hunger’ or ‘moderate hunger’ categories defined by the GHI 2008
5. Even the best performing Indian state, Punjab, lies below 33 other developing countries ranked by GHI.
But the irony is Punjab ranks in the top 5 for states under farmer suicides category.
6. Even more alarming is the fact that the worstperforming
states in India – Bihar, Jharkhand, and Madhya Pradesh – rank most closely with countries that are precariously positioned on the GHI 2008 rankings. For instance, Bihar and Jharkhand rank lower than Zimbabwe and Haiti, while Madhya Pradesh falls between Ethiopia and Chad.
7. Outliers like Punjab and Orissa and Kerala perform better on the
ISHI 2008 than might be expected given their poverty levels, while Madhya Pradesh, Gujarat and Karnataka perform worse .
If I was biased i would have chosen to conveniently ignore point 7.
But the fact is Modi himself accepts these issues and is working towards the same. Why do you forget that? When 50 years of congress hasnt solved the issue how can you expect 8 years of Modi’s rule to? Isnt it too much to ask for. Lets discuss this after Modi completes his term. Lets see how well he does on this.
>> – Have been blessed with the ability to answer any question that comes up in a debate. And I do not display avoidance behaviour. Unlike what you’ve done in response to my simple appeal to your logic. Barking up the wrong tree, was I? ;-)
Oh the born debater, please answer all the questions pending. Only then will i continue the discussion forward.
11 March 2009 at 5:54 am
Saffron brigade of Churumuri.. Name atleast one dalit minister or a minority minister in modis government.. he is pro-upper class.
He dint even make an effort to bring back Gandhijis memorabilia being a gujrati, thats because he is a godse supporter..
11 March 2009 at 6:45 am
Sandesh,
Truly there is no use I feel now to discuss with Heckler. If one starts feeling that he has become a teacher its the end of learning process you know :)
Heckler,
I have just one final question. Answer it with just Yes/No.
Planning commission has been awarding star performer certificate to Gujarat consistently. Do you think the planning commission folks are morons to do so?
If your answer is Yes, Dr.Singh and Ahluwalia are morons they dont deserve the planning commission chair.
If No, then you accept that Gujarat is a star performer.
Lets see if you can give a straight Yes/No answer.
11 March 2009 at 6:34 pm
Sandesh,
Choosing not to see the truth seems to be the defining feature of the Indian right-wing. K~Priya deliberately avoids the points that indict modi & attempts to distract all from the main issue: modi’s shortcomings.
You’re free to believe him. You have always been free & you’ve turned out the unfortunate way you have, because of the rightist choices you’ve made.
Bring on more from your brigade. It’s the truth that will win eventually. Your not accepting it, doesn’t change the facts. :-)
Maybe you should be asking your friends to look closer at the definitions that I’ve urged them to look at. Confused on Liberal, Variance, Fairness, Truth etc. etc. rss paaThshaala schooled or what? ;-)
____
palahalli… :-)
I don’t teach for a living, but I do it out of a sense of social committment. To undo the damage that the guruji (LOL!) gowalkar & murli manohar joshi types tried to do!!!
1. Er… rss publication? Why? Since when does selective representation of facts & propaganda qualify as a credible source??? You’re sure you’ve not TOTALLY lost it? :-)
2. Now you’re on mushrooms!!! :-D Where did you get that??? If you’re so desperate to run from the mess you’ve gotten yourself into, why don’t you just graciously admit that you put your foot in your mouth. How is avoiding looking up Liberal in the dictionary going to help you??? The thing you seem to miss is that you’re not the only reader of Churumuri. :-) The other readers will laugh everytime they read this post at how you ran from a Heckler, because he asked you to look up Liberal! C’mon… show some spine…! :-)
3. Refer to first line above. Wait till the effects wear off, re-read & return. :-)
4. I don’t do anything. I present facts. You live in denial. It’s what we do that defines us. :-)
Like I’ve said before, for you & your laughable ilk, everyone else is wrong & only your viewpoint is right. Er… Fascist? :-)
Communism’s demise really has nothing to do with Bhagat Singh not being one. :-) Save the gloat for a more pertinent forum. :-)
No. Walking away means that they were once influenced.
So the DNA link negates all the other proof does it? What about the red cloth Bhagat Singh tied around his neck, the telegram on Lenin’s birthday? Selective looking at facts again eh?
5. You don’t really deserve to bring the name of either Singh to your lips. You bring their legacy shame by doing so. The comforts you enjoy in India today were brought to you by Dr. Manmohan Singh. (Not to mention Rajiv Gandhi, Sam Pitroda, PVN Rao, Montek Singh etc. etc.)
It is indicative of the thanklessness, denial, lies & deciet of your ilk that you sully the name of men who have contributed to all that is good in your life.
6. I do. He is conscientious. Any man who has devoted an entire lifetime to chronicling the issues of rural India & her poorest citizens, anyone who spends over 250 days a year living in the Indian heartland, deserves (& gets) universal respect. I respect him. Journalistic circles do. Amartya Sen does. You? Pooh! You don’t matter. You’re anti-India. You’re conservative not progressive, not secular. You want to take our civilization behind. You’d rather India rural populace continued to live in poverty. Anti-National elements like you deserve no respect. Under an autocratic Govt., you’d have been tried for treason! :-)
7. Just because your mind is incapable of separating one fact from another doesn’t mean mine is too.
Einstein was a great mind. He admired Gandhiji & his ideals tremendously. He just didn’t follow in Gandhiji’s footsteps. Each had a different purpose cut out for them.
As for simple answers, do you care to answer the one I asked you on this point about the Army? Or is it OK for you to avoid answers? Since you have double standards & all that…? :-)
8. Read until you get it. Read from top to bottom & again until you get it.
9. I’m not interested in getting modi. That job will be done by the Judiciary & the Executive. I hope those two bodies will prove themselves more worthy of our respect than they have recently. I am doing my bit by countering propaganda. I have a problem with blanket generalizations. I don’t like people saying that all Indians are backward. I don’t like people saying that shahrukh is India’s best actor. I don’t like people hailing modi as the best thing since sliced bread.
I like to hear a fair unbiased view. I don’t mind it if people say that quite a large population of Indians is economically backward. I don’t mind people saying that shahrukh is a very popular star but not a great actor. I don’t like people ignoring modi’s failures on purpose & hailing him, forgetting all the things that he’s failed at.
I am just asking for a fair opinion to be expressed.
And I’m not laughing because you care. Your caring or not doesn’t matter to me. I laugh because you’re providing so much amusement.
I will admit that laughing at someone’s inadequacies is impolite. That I am guilty of. :-)
____
K~Priya…
I’m afraid with that kind of an attitude, you’re not helping either in the resolution of the issues being debated, in the search for the truth or any other worthy motive. You’re displaying avoidance behaviour, which can only lead to a stalemate.
I’ll answer every question of yours, if you promise to address the specific question I am asking you instead of attempting to divert attention from it.
I was wondering why you were bent on implying that I hadn’t answering your questions. So I backtracked a bit & discovered that I had indeed left out a set. You will recall however that I had done that asking you a few questions, expecting straight answers, by clearly stating the following:
Since you’ve displayed what you’re made of, by refusing to provide straight answers to straight questions, I guess it’s my turn to show what I’m made of, by keeping at least my end of the bargain.
- I notice that the discussion has moved away from modi being a top-scorer to settling for # 4 & 5 ranks. For effecting this progress, I would like to take a little bow on behalf of Churumuri, Simple, Ashoka etc. :-)
- I would like to give you credit for accepting that there are other important aspects to development & that modi has work to do in these very important aspects. That apart from growth rate, there are issues like poverty, hunger, HDI, education, corruption, etc. etc. (remember many, many?) that matter.
If you disagree with my observations on the progress of this discussion, please feel free to let me know.
I don’t think Dipankar Gupta is a liar. (It’s him you called a liar didn’t you?) If you type in HDI Gujarat in Google, a plethora of links comes up. I’m bypassing the presumably self-congratulatory Gujarat state links & presenting some recent ones from the mainstream media for you to look at:
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2009/02/26/stories/2009022650711900.htm (Hopefully I am allowed to submit a link from here as pal~… & sandesh had so eloquently argued…) :-) &
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1923/stories/20021122000707900.htm (paras 7, 8 & 9 here will help you with some kind of a definition)
I don’t want to accuse you of either using data selectively nor calling your research shoddy, but you may want to dig a little deeper before calling Dipankar Gupta a liar. He has pointed out facts that modi in a recent interview has himself semi-admitted to. Remarkably modi says that HDI is a national issue & should be looked at that way, but insists on taking credit for Gujarat’s development, conveniently forgetting that development too is a national issue. :-)
Sigh… such integrity on display…!
So if you will please stop looking only at Montek Singh’s pat & also look at the Planning Commission’s rap on his knuckles on HDI, my respect for you will grow.
Hopefully I’ve done my bit & answered your questions. Would it be too much for me to expect for you to do your bit now?
_____
Coming to your previous comment…
Growth rates is but one part. GDSP aggregates are another. So despite all the F1 speed growth rates in Gujarat, they’re STILL not being able to catch up with Goa??? tsk, tsk…
-IF Tendulkar’s average was really as low as you are foolishly suggesting, then your juvenile argument would hold water. Unfortunately this is not the case. The Tendulkar being discussed in this case has a respectable average & a mammoth aggregate.
I remember you saying:
Are you making the mistake of attempting to be a sociologist, an economist, a statistician & a cricket afficionado all at once…?? :-)
- I could well be wrong on Variance. Maybe you can put the table data into an Excel sheet & demonstrate the Variance to me? I’ve shown whatever I know in a graph here (the polynomial for Jharkhand is more impressive than that of Gujarat’s). Will you put your money where your mouth is?
I’d also suggest you look up Variance again. Check this link please: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_formula_for_the_variance
Now if you can provide me the E(X), the expected value, it’d be really nice.
- While we tangle on Variance, let me remind you that I haven’t forgotten that you have:
A. FAILED to demonstrate an ability to see or speak the whole truth about modi. &
B. That your response on the farmer suicides is more avoidance behaviour. Are you doubting the authenticity of the RTI data that Bharat Jhala obtained & that was reported?
If you are, then talking to you is useless, since you too seem to want to look only at those reports that absolve modi. You miss the point that Bharat Jhala had to resort to the RTI act to get the correct figures out (as opposed to the one’s being quoted by the Gujarat administration!)
One question for you to answer is this:
Is 317 an acceptable figure? Is hovering only slightly lower than the national average anything to be proud of???
- By the way, the IE link you’ve presented, is talking about the %age increase! The figures you’re naively calling lies are basically a comment on your inability to understand what is being said in the news article.
You want proof? Here you go! http://ncrb.nic.in/ADSI2007/Table-2.3.pdf
(Inability to look at/present incriminating evidence? Is that what this was? Or was it a simple miss? Either way…)
- The ncrb link that you’ve provided has another Table 2F, on page 178: suicides due to illness: gujarat ranks 7th @ 27.8% share, higher than the category average of 22.3%
There is quite a lot of data contained in that pdf, but there is more that should’ve been there. Maybe an RTI application will help obtain that? Which is exactly what Bharat Jhala did. The data that you’re choosing to ignore.
I suggest you take a long, hard look at your own common sense & stop exposing the absolute fool you are, not only on data, but on fairness & leanings as well. :-)
Should I carry on?
I think in the interests of the Truth, I must.
- So in the post reforms period, the credit for Gujarat’s growth is due to the national level reforms, but once modi took charge, the credit immediately passed to him? Is that what you’re saying??? LOLOL! Thank you for infusing my day with such merriment! :-D
So according to your statements, the rest of the country has been doing nothing while modi’s Gujarat surges? LOL! More merriment! :-D
I’m actually glad I had this conversation with you. It exposes your biases, but more importantly the classic right-wing inability to excel at anything, whether it’s logic or an ability to accurately read data.
____
Corruption: Get some data sure, but do read it accurately. Not like the way you messed up the IE link & the ncrb data! You were the one praising the modi administration. Is the administration not responsible for a corruption-free state, specially when it’s been pointed out to them in the national media??? And you must have missed the hunger link corruption reference on purpose too… No?
So if corruption is present all over India, and also in gujarat, then how do you claim that gujarat under modi is better than the rest of India, sweetheart???
Let’s not talk about things that have not happened yet. Let’s talk of what he’s not achieved on HDI at this point. Please?
I’ve addressed the Montek & Planning Commission point before. Please refer to it.
The Congress is responsible for a lot of the things that we’re behind on & the media (or you guys specially) leave no opportunity to point that out. And the Congress has to deal with a shaken voter base because of their failures.
My point: Why should modi’s failures not be spoken about similarly? Why do have a K~Priya saying at least he didn’t make a Bihar! Selective apologizing, huh? Bias, huh? I thought as much. :-)
My motive has been achieved sweetheart. I have you defending every single failure that has been attributed to the modi administration (something you have failed to define as asked last time. But I forgot, you’re meant to avoid answering questions. Answering them is supposed to be my sole preserve!)! The plethora of links that point to his failures & your defensive, haplessly flailing stance is enough for most readers of this forum to know that all is not well in Gujarat. And THAT is ALL I had to say. That is also ALL you were asked to acknowledge, but you… :-)
K~Priya…
However you phrase it to Sandesh, it will not change that fact that you’re looking for an exit. And once you go thru this particular set of responses, your search will turn to panic.
Just say so. What are you worried about? :-)
As you sow, so shall you reap… Learn to honour the simple requests of others, if you care for yours to be honoured. Had you displayed the integrity & honesty required to address my questions with the simple & straightforward answers they had, you’d have the pleasure of getting the answers from me.
I however, am very very different from your lot, so here you go.
Can you please give me a link to the Planning Commission’s star performer certificates?
If your basic premise can be authenticated, there will be a yes & no answer will be waiting at your doorstep. :-)
That leaves a lot of answering for you to do k~priya… :-)
Let’s see if you’re up to it?
11 March 2009 at 6:41 pm
Ashoka – Good you woke up to Dalit representation in Gujarat cabinet at least. This is something Modi would do well to ensure.
Btw, Modi is an OBC himself.
The Saffron brigade of Churumuri has also been speaking about Dalits in Dravida Tamil Nadu. Sadly, you’re still sleeping wrt this issue.
11 March 2009 at 7:24 pm
Heckler
No more arguments.. I specifically asked you questions and you reply with nonsense like this :
“Choosing not to see the truth seems to be the defining feature of the Indian right-wing. ”
Who cares its right or left wing. Did I tell you anytime that I am a rightist or a leftist ? Irrelevant comment
“K~Priya deliberately avoids the points that indict modi & attempts to distract all from the main issue: modi’s shortcomings. ”
Hahaha… who avoids what ? .. nice joke.
“You’re free to believe him. You have always been free & you’ve turned out the unfortunate way you have, because of the rightist choices you’ve made. ”
No comment..except to say that this is irrelevant!
“Bring on more from your brigade. It’s the truth that will win eventually. Your not accepting it, doesn’t change the facts. :-) ”
-) … when I brought up stuff (after wading through your unnecessary chaff)… you chose not to respond. So why do I (or my “friends” ) need to bring anything from our “brigade” ? Just so you can pose meta-meta-questions eh ?
“Maybe you should be asking your friends to look closer at the definitions that I’ve urged them to look at. ”
You are doing excellent job of that… teaching/coaching and confusing them. Carry on…
“Confused on Liberal, Variance, Fairness, Truth etc. etc. rss paaThshaala schooled or what? ;-) ”
After looking at your “Excel”-lent approach to plotting and analyzing data, I can only shudder to think which “paaThashaala” you went to!
BTW, you asked for E(X) right ? Is X a stationary (strict or wide sense) or non-stationary random variable ? Tell me this and then we will talk!
11 March 2009 at 8:16 pm
Heckler – Going by the size of you’re parachute, looks like you’re getting ready to fall from atmospheric heights buddy :)
As usual you’re responses to my pointed queries is a huge mish-mash.
1. My sympathies are with you’re unfortunate students.
2. I said “RSS related publication or study”. Notice the difference?
3. Sad you cannot face facts that are so clearly against you’re slutty assertions about Columbus, Edison etc etc
4. Same on Nehru, that shameless fan of Stalin :)
5. Funny, did I hear you right? Did you say Bhagat Singh’s own nephew was lying about his uncle’s politics? And some cheap propagandist speaks the truth?
6. Ever heard of a Very Cheap Ad? Read this – “The comforts you enjoy in India today were brought to you by Dr. Manmohan Singh.”
Please remember, I’m using MM Singh’s own formula.
“The development in Gujarat is not because of Modi but because of hard working Gujaratis!”
Modi would be the first to agree.
7. Einstein, “He just didn’t follow in Gandhiji’s footsteps”.
- Like I said, sensible and practical chap. Soul-Force and such is for “those silly Hindus”.
- Army huh? Did I not tell you you’re hero (Gandhi) wanted it disbanded? Pay attention please :)
8. Feels awkward when you get caught on the “disclaimer”, doesn’t it?
9. “I hope those two bodies will prove themselves more worthy of our respect than they have recently.”
- Nice padding for when you hit the ground. Far sighted though :)
10. So, respect the army man from afar but not share his burden if duty commands it? If you’re conscripted, you will hide, won’t you? Like so many pacifists did/do everywhere :) Coward! :)
11. “I like to hear a fair unbiased view.” – Me, more than you.
You, Heckler, must work very hard on being unbiased.
11 March 2009 at 11:22 pm
Heckler,
>> – I notice that the discussion has moved away from modi being a top-scorer to settling for # 4 & 5 ranks. For effecting this progress, I would like to take a little bow on behalf of Churumuri, Simple, Ashoka etc. :-)
Surely take a bow. Why dont you bow down touch your legs and say cock-a-doodle doo? It amazes me that a guy who has no knowledge of data interpretation/statistics is talking of ranking a state :) Amazed how you arrived @ 4 and 5.
Look at the planning commission report here
http://www.gujaratindia.com/Media/newsdetail.aspx?News_id=1051
‘Gujarat is in a class by itself. Among its peer states, Gujarat has the highest rate of growth of GDP, manufacturing and per capita SDP. The openness to immigration of labour, and the natural advantage of much land with little alternative use, local entrepreneurship, state support and local politics that is not against capital are significant factors,” says the chapter on’Economic Performance of Gujarat in recent times”.
>> -IF Tendulkar’s average was really as low as you are foolishly suggesting, then your juvenile argument would hold water. Unfortunately this is not the case. The Tendulkar being discussed in this case has a respectable average & a mammoth aggregate.
How stupid and naive. My statement was hypothetical. What if tendulkar was so? Obviously you wont understand that. You have become a teacher
>> – I could well be wrong on Variance. Maybe you can put the table data into an Excel sheet & demonstrate the Variance to me? I’ve shown whatever I know in a graph here (the polynomial for Jharkhand is more impressive than that of Gujarat’s). Will you put your money where your mouth is?
Haha. You are the “Teacher”, you are supposed to know everything :) But the fact is you are wrong :)
Farmer suicides:
http://in.news.yahoo.com/48/20090222/804/tnl-national-data-says-farmer-suicides-a.html
You used the NCRB data and i proved the loose ends in it.
This is what PN roy Chief Secretary Gujarat has to say
He added: “The data can only be authentic if all the stakeholders, that is the government, NGOs, media and the Kisan unions together develop a collective surveying mechanism.”
There are different categories in farmer suicides
Mental illness, crop losses, death of dear ones, isolation etc etc. If you could tell me how many happened due to crop losses, only then will i go forward. Read any of the reports on farmer suicides in Maharastra you will understand what the term Farmer suicides mean in totality.
>>- So in the post reforms period, the credit for Gujarat’s growth is due to the national level reforms, but once modi took charge, the credit immediately passed to him? Is that what you’re saying??? LOLOL! Thank you for infusing my day with such merriment! :-D
That shows your level of understanding on economics. I cant help. I meant reforms aided most states. You wont understand you are a teacher now. :P
>>My point: Why should modi’s failures not be spoken about similarly? Why do have a K~Priya saying at least he didn’t make a Bihar! Selective apologizing, huh? Bias, huh? I thought as much. :-)
Define Modi’s Failures first? Dont bring in the same old HDI crap again? You are yet to respond to my links. I didnt say atleast he didnt make a Bihar. Point where did I?
>> So if corruption is present all over India, and also in gujarat, then how do you claim that gujarat under modi is better than the rest of India, sweetheart???
is corruption the only metric? You talk as though a first ranker should get 100 marks in all subjects else he doesnt deserve to be called a first ranker , even though his total is better than all other students.:) BTW you chose not to respond to the link on e-governance reducing corruption in Gujarat.
Regarding Dipankar gupta, I have proved his bias. Dont keep repeating the same BS of read paragraph x,y,z. He quotes outdated 2001 data in HDI but calls 2004 because the report was published in 2004.
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1923/stories/20021122000707900.htm .
Its an outdated article , of 2002. Its 2009 now. It casts doubts on Planning commission methodology. Come out clean , do you want to believe planning commission data or the outdated article. You use the planning commission data on GDSP when needed and cast aspersions when not needed. BTW you still didnt answer why growth rate isnt a better tool against GDSP aggregate. Nor did you define GDSP aggregate.
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2009/02/26/stories/2009022650711900.htm
The link doesnt say how other states compare. Do you mean to say that Ahluwalia is a liar then,that he’s praising Modi for efforts to improve HDI? Do you mean to say the people in charge of planning commission are lying. Dr.Singh heads the planning commission.Now dont tell me I didnt send that link where he does so. You didnt even bother to refute the economic freedom index awarded by a panel headed by Sonia. I have explained the rank 1 student analogy, only if you could understand that. :) You dont even wanna give a chance to prove his mettle. Modi hasnt semi-accepted it, he has accepted its a problem fully. I sent a link already.
>>- By the way, the IE link you’ve presented, is talking about the %age increase! The figures you’re naively calling lies are basically a comment on your inability to understand what is being said in the news article.
Which link? I have sent in so many links that I have lost track. Be specific and to the point.
>>My motive has been achieved sweetheart.
If it brings happiness to you. Please feel so.
>>You want proof? Here you go! http://ncrb.nic.in/ADSI2007/Table-2.3.pdf
Stupid Fella. Thats incidence of suicides. Not “Farmer suicides”. And you talk about my common sense.
>> – The ncrb link that you’ve provided has another Table 2F, on page 178: suicides due to illness: gujarat ranks 7th @ 27.8% share, higher than the category average of 22.3%
All the while you were discussing “Farmer suicides”. Now you want to switch to suicides due to illness. I can understand your frustration. :) All the while you tried to use ncrb data on farmer suicides, now that you are on a shaky ground you are switching to suicides due to illness. Great going. :)
Just say so. What are you worried about? :-)
Yes buddy. I am extremely worried that I also might end up unlearning all the statistics and Data Interpretation that I learnt all these years.
BTW thanks for the variance graph. That was truly awesome and enlightening. My cousin is a post-graduate gold medalist in statistics. She should be able to give you some gyaan, only if you feel that you can demote from a teacher to a student. :) But I am not sure, if she ll teach such incompetent people. Unfortunately she doesnt believe in reservations, else you could have landed a seat through minority quota. I also asked her to look through all these comments we exchanged. She had a hearty laugh. She thanks you for all the funny comments on data interpretation. Especially she liked the variance stuff.
Thanks for all the fun. I am signing off. No more discussions with you unless you get some gyaan on statistics. Issues can be debated only amongst equals, and you are a “TEACHER” and i am a learner, so doesnt fit well. I dont want to create more embarrassing situations for you like whats been happening daily. I will spare you on that front.
I know you ll come back saying I am an escapist. But the fact is that you are the one who has avoided all my questions. Most sane people who will read the conversation will also feel so. Thanks again for all the fun dear. “GURU”VINA GULAMANAGUVATANAKA DOREYADANNA MUKTI :P
Palahalli,
Great going. I can see the points reducing from 18 odd to 9 . :)
12 March 2009 at 5:05 am
Heckler darling,
“IF Tendulkar’s average was really as low as you are foolishly suggesting, then your juvenile argument would hold water. Unfortunately this is not the case. The Tendulkar being discussed in this case has a respectable average & a mammoth aggregate.”
This is the final straw.. can’t you differentiate between a “hypothetical” and a “real” issue ??? what’s gotten into your head sweetheart ??
Kpriya
As you have noted correctly we all will forget our statistics and DI if we were to do “Excel”-lent analysis like Heckler :). BTW, why do you even try to answer his/her queries when heckler accuses you of “avoiding” (hahaha.. thats really funny isn’t it ?:-))
Pal,
“you’ve displayed what you’re made of, by refusing to provide straight answers to straight questions,”
and then Heckler launches into a full fledged paragraph-mode replies that are meant to go nowhere :-). I think debating (if thats what we can call this) with heckler is waste of our precious time.
My two final cents
a) Modi has not claimed that gujarat’s development is solely due to his work.. neither do Kpriya, Pal and I
b) To take away from what Modi has achieved (like heckler and simple) is super foolishness!
12 March 2009 at 11:34 am
Kharaharapriya
Why should any other state follow ‘Gujarat’ model of govt?
When Gujarat is way behind other states in several aspects of development, why should other states look up to Gujarat, I wonder.
HERE IS SOLID PROOF THAT GUJARAT UNDER BJP IS ACTUALLY SLIPPING BEHIND MOST STATES IN INDIA.
1st Point (thanks to Hecler for the link)
1. Gujarat has the worstt HDI improvemetn record. Is this the ‘model’ state we have to follow?
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2009/02/26/stories/2009022650711900.htm
Summary of the above link:
The economy of Gujarat is sustaining an overall growth rate of eight percentage points, but the incidence of rural poverty declined at the annual rate of 0.23 per cent, which is the worst Human Development Index (HDI) improvement record among all states
2nd Point:
Under BJP, Gujarat actually fared miserably in education and health indices. Here is proof. See the same link above. And, here is teh summary:
From 1996 to 2006, Gujarat slipped one rank each in education and health indices to eight and tenth positions, respectively, as compared to 20 other states
Just answer these two points. Why did Gujarat under BJP actually slip in health, education and rural povery allievation compared to most states.
12 March 2009 at 12:28 pm
“Why did Gujarat under BJP actually slip in health, education and rural povery allievation compared to most states.”
- Hmmm..let me guess..did you move to Gujarat and become Modi’s neighbor? He must have cried for death..poor chap ;)
12 March 2009 at 1:34 pm
Sandesh,
True. I am not responding to Heckler anymore. I have had enough of his “Intellectual” atyaachaar :)
Simple,
What are you made of man? I have already discussed that link. I am not gonna repeat my statements. I used a “first” rank student analogy. Read that again.
This is exactly what I also re-iterate :
a) Modi has not claimed that gujarat’s development is solely due to his work.. neither do sandesh, Pal and I
b) To take away from what Modi has achieved (like heckler and simple) is super foolishness!
12 March 2009 at 6:50 pm
Kharaharapriya
Congratulations for finally accepting that Gujarat is not a state worth emulating.
You admitted that
1) Gujarat has actually slipped in health under BJP
2) Gujarat has actually falled behind in education under BJP
3) Gujarat is the worst state when it comes to improvement in Human Development Index.
My question is: Is this the Gujarat model we should follow?
My second question iss: gujarat may be ahead in very FEW parameters. But there are other STATES which are ahead in SEVERAL other parameters
So it is time to EMULATE other states instead of just chanting Gujarat mantra.
Simple.
***
Palahalli
I showed you proof that Gujarat has actualy fallen behind (under BJP) in health , education and poverty allievation.
I challenge you to challenge the links i have given.
Else, don’t mumble nonsense.
Take a leaf out of Heckler’s posting and bring some refreshing clarity into your incoherence. (you too Haraharapriya)
Keep your answers needle sharp instead of ducking my questions.
12 March 2009 at 7:59 pm
Simple,
Congratulations, that you accept you are super foolish . :) It really needs guts to do so and very few people have that in them.
BTW
Can you tell me which state needs to be emulated, if not Gujarat?
Can you tell me which is that state in India which wins hands down under all parameters against all other states?
You mean to say people sitting in the planning commission are morons?
>> My second question iss: gujarat may be ahead in very FEW parameters. But there are other STATES which are ahead in SEVERAL other parameters
Come up with a report, defining what are “parameters” and how other states compare. We will take it further. Dont give some altu-faltu links to confuse us. Come up with a comprehensive report. I dare you to do so. I you cant I have no other option but to rather trust the planning commission data. Also quantify “FEW” and “SEVERAL”.
Data interpretion bagge A,B,C gothilla band bidtaare alladskondu nand ellidli anta. :)
12 March 2009 at 8:57 pm
Kharaharapriya
Awesome display of extraordinary low IQ. I shall raise a toast to you tonight.
When did I say that there is only one state which is above all the other states in all development aspects? Don’t create shadows sir.
What planning commission are you talking about?
It clearly shows Gujarat slipping badly under BJP on important parameters like Health, Education and povery reduction
First accept this.
Tch Tch.
So you are an expert on data interpretation? Better than experts who have qualified Gujarat as a disaster in Health, education and poverty reduction?
Is this worth emulating?
yes or no?
tell me that.
12 March 2009 at 9:18 pm
Sandesh, K~priya, pal~… et all…
One thing is obvious by now:
That you guys lack the grace to accord even deserved respect to any link that proves you & your hero wrong.
My fault entirely for assuming that supporters of modi could possibly listen to the voice of reason. I forgot momentarily that I was arguing with indoctrinated fascists. There is no other breed in the World that would refuse to see truth even if it was being shoved in their faces. You’re welcome to your blinkers my friends.
Just consider this: With that kind of an attitude you too (like your predecessors) will be able to lay no claim to India’s glory.
No amount of tables, graphs, trendlines, news articles can convince you. Therefore I should stop trying. Bowing out of a pointless argument makes more sense than trying to convince hardliners.
So closing comments from me, for the three of you. Enjoy yourselves. :-)
_____
Err Sandesh…
Where exactly had you asked any questions…? Didn’t notice any in your last few comments. :-)
You don’t need to say it. Your defending modi makes it obvious.
I don’t need you to admit it, to notice the consistent avoidance on k~priya’s part.
You didn’t bring up anything like I’ve pointed out before. More empty claims.
Stop making excuses for not having the guts to confront a dictionary. :-)
E(X): Another example from you of refusing to answer the question being asked of you & instead coming up with another question. More avoidance. It’s really nice to see people running scared & then trying to lamely disguise their fear.
_____
pal~…,
Girte hain Shahsavaar hee maidan-e-jung mein… woh tifl (meaning you) kya girein jo guThneeyon chalein! :-)
1. You will know best. Since you’re one of them. ;-)
2. I don’t. None visible to the naked eye at least. ;-)
3. & 4. You’re welcome to your delusions. I’m happy to note that you will fail any history (or logic) exam if those are your real beliefs. If you’re lying of course, it’s a different story. Either way, you’re the loser. And nothing could make me happier than a conservative failing/losing. :-)
5. Being Bhagat Singh’s own nephew makes his word stronger? Is that what you’re saying? Considering that you’re not willing to grant that being born to a Hindu is enough for one to have love for Hinduism; considering that you’re not willing to admit his pamphlet as proof of his atheist tendencies. Forget it. We all know by now that the only proof that makes sense to you is the kind that fits in with your view of the facts. With that closed a mind, you won’t get far. And I’ll be a happy man with conservatives wallowing in oblivion. :-)
6. Your calling it that, won’t change facts. It still means the same thing: That you’re an ingrate.
And just in case you missed the whole point… this discussion wasn’t about what modi himself says, but what people like you say about him. A little late in the day to realise that, eh?
7. More avoidance behaviour. My question wasn’t that on the Army. I’d asked you whether your respect for the armyman makes you join him in battle? You haven’t answered that question. And I’m not surprised. :-)
8. :-) Nope. My sentence is embedded on this page for anyone to refer to. Your twisting it will not magically make the lettering change. I do wonder how you live with yourself with so much deceit, but then I’ve heard that the right-wingers are made of a poorer moral fibre… :-)
9. Doesn’t address what I said, but have fun with your keyboard! ;-)
10. ?????
11. If you’re wishing it it’ll happen. You can start by being the change you want to see. :-)
Enjoy.
_____
k~priya…
I’m most disappointed in you. I thought your obvious intellect would rescue you from the pitfalls of right-wing sympathy, but it wasn’t to be.
Don’t be amazed. You yourself came up with those numbers. Refer to your own earlier comments.
Short term memory loss? “Ghajini” kya? ;-)
Err… can we refrain from presenting gujaratindia links…? If you know the first thing about reliable data, you will not make the same mistake again.
Why were you making hypothetical statements when we were giving analogies??? Talking apples instead of oranges on purpose? ;-D
I notice with tremendous glee, your inability to come up with a response on the trendlines in the graph! :-)
:-) Sigh… When will you stop doing this. First in trying to defend modi, you stick your foot down your throat. Then you defend yourself despite knowing that you botched up the NCRB table reading. HOW will so much defensiveness help you???
Your defense is another classic example of what I was saying all along about your ilk. You can only see the farmer suicide situation in Maharashtra, not in Gujarat. That’s OK. I’m extremely happy with your “state of denial”.
More defensive stuff follows on the post reforms comment… Good. If you want to learn, take the word of a teacher (with 3 students in my class, the applicant list seems to be growing!), look up “defensive”.
modi’s failures? You don’t want me to mention HDI? OK. I won’t.
What about bootlegging, the DNA link to the PR freebies, corruption, farmer suicides, infant mortality…??? Or you don’t want me to bring them up either? tsk… tsk… So much for a seeker of the truth…! :-)
My fault on the Bihar reference. The statements had been made by sandesh & pal~.
Question redirected to them. Not to answer, as they’ve demonstrated immense reticence for that, but for them to mull over.
Thank you for bringing up “the only metric“! Surely corruption isn’t.
I ask you if growth rate is the only metric. After all gujarat has top-scored ONLY on that metric, hasn’t it?
It has done poorly on other metrics.
So, to you, does only one metric deserve all the bouquets?
What about the total score??? That things like HDI, corruption, Governance etc. complete??? Kya?
(You’re hardly qualified to talk about avoiding answers!!! LOLOL!!! I didn’t address the e-governance link as that would’ve added another dimension to this discussion, when you’re unwilling to address the ones that were brought up earlier. You’ve chosen not to define Administration as you see it. What about that? And in case you were trying to put an anti-corruption point forward, I think the bootlegging link did that for me long back, thanks.)
You’ve haven’t proved anything on Dipankar Gupta. You’ve only proved that you probably scored poorly on English Comprehension in school. :-)
GDSP or Growth Rate are both metrics. One isn’t better than the other. Both tell a story, that combine to make up the full story. Strange you didn’t get that. English Comprehension again…? :-)
Err… I asked you to tell me about the Planning Commission star performer certificates (being awarded consistently as you claimed).
I didn’t call Montek Singh anything. You’re the one who is:
. Avoiding answering my question. AGAIN. At least you’re consistent! ;-)
. Putting words in my mouth.
Please avoid both, will you? :-)
Panel wasn’t headed by Sonia, but by Bebek Debroy. The institute is headed by Sonia. Get your facts right for once at least!!!
ncrb link: If you want to contradict yourself, feel free to do so. What I said to pal~ applies to you too. How do you live with yourself, knowing that you’re being deceitful?
You’re the one who brought up the figures of 10.8% & 3.9%, while totally misunderstanding the article. I pointed you to the table to tell you that you had made a mistake in Comprehending the article!
Now you get it??? :-D
So your cousin is the expert on stats? Then why were you attempting the analysis instead of her??? I’m glad you had to go to her. ;-) Anyway… I have the humility to learn from a Guru’s Guru. If she’s willing to teach, I’m willing to learn.
What thrills me INFINITELY is your “reservations” & “minority quota” comment!!! :-D I only wish you’d made it earlier! You’ve demonstrated the classic ultra-conservative, upper-caste, clannish mindset that has long been the hallmark of the right-wing! :-D Thank you so very much. This comment of yours puts everything you’ve said up till now in perspective!!! Thank you again! :-D
I think on that note alone, I will leave here thoroughly proud at having stripped you of your masks, while you walk in away in (suspended?) embarassment.
Most sane people (Dipankar Gupta, Ranjona Banerji, Churumuri, etc. etc.) already know the truth. It’s you who’s avoiding the truth that they speak. :-D (At this point, I must thank you for the immense merriment!!!) :-D
Last point to you: I was wondering why despite your barbs like stupid, foolish etc., was I being generally nice to you. Then I realised that your name threw up feminine connotations & in my mind I was talking to you as if I was talking to a lady. One thing at least you have going for you! ;-)
_____
sandesh…
This has been addressed already so I will skip straight to my 1 cent:
- To ignore that modi has (despite the class specific industrial growth rate) failed on many other facets of development is a blunder that Naidu’s PR machine had made earlier. You’re welcome to make it too. :-)
What is notable is that you all are collectively opting to exit. Don’t bother. I’m done. Exposing your lack of reason, logic & your bias was on my agenda. I’m done. :-)
12 March 2009 at 9:25 pm
Simple,
If you are really “The Man”, come up with a comprehensive report.
See you still dont have an answer as to which state everyone should follow? If not to follow Gujarat which other state? Helamma, yaake maatu nintu hoytu? :)
>> What planning commission are you talking about?
Thats why i told. Full post odele nandelidli anta barbeda anta. Adeno heltaralla raatri ella ramayana odidamele ramangu seethegu en sambhanda anta kelidnante, haagaytu ninna kathe. :)
Surely shows your SUPERLATIVE IQ.
Good bye. Keep ranting.
12 March 2009 at 9:44 pm
Simple, there are certain limits placed on stupidity. But you seem intent to get into the Guinness book in thread after thread :)
Why don’t you go through this entire thread where K-priya and Sandesh have dealt with Heckler and then analyze and draw you’re conclusions.
Please stop torturing us like you tortured Modi as his neighbor :)
Spare us…please!
13 March 2009 at 1:26 pm
PS: k~priya… I’m surprised that your gold-medallist in stats cousin could only muster up a laugh instead of pertinent commentary on the graph. :-)
Simple… 2 things:
1. Let it go. Not worth your time. Or mine.
2. Find me. :-) We need to talk.
13 March 2009 at 2:59 pm
Heckler, I guess we’re tired of you’re bullshit…but at least I want to have more fun :)
1. Atheist = Communist?
2. Joining army men? I thought you were the ace wrt comprehending English conversation :) I spoke about conscription did I not? “Comprehend” where I stand now.
A thoroughly bigoted fascist (should I say, communist?)Liberal who also, btw, never answers anything to the point but instead makes this behavioral vice a virtue through obfuscation and worse; is lecturing people who make no bones about where they stand!
Amazing!
Yeah..I noticed. The number of questions is down to 2!
13 March 2009 at 4:18 pm
Palahalli and Kharaharapriya
The brilliant dispaly of low IQ continues. You both vye with each other for the lowest IQ.
I gave three links to prove Gujarat has actually fallen behind under BJP
in
a) health
b) education
c) poverty reduction.
Focus . Focus. Focus on those three points.
Take each one point by point and answer me, else go into your shells.
Kharahara
there is no on single state worth emulating. If karnataka is good in certain things, Maharasthra is better at other aspects, and so is Gujarat good in a few aspects.
you can never find a state that is tops on all aspects of development.
yes you CAN NEVER find a SINGLE state.
Therefore, lets stop mouthing that we should follow Gujarat model.
Let Gujrat learn from karnataka about education. Let Gujarat learn from keral about illiteracy.
Let each state learn from the other, but to put Gujarat up there and say, this is the model of govt, we shall follow, is plain stupid.
13 March 2009 at 4:29 pm
Heckler
Love is blind. So is faith. Faith is beyond reason. These gentlemen have misplaced faith in whatever they believe in.
No amount of evidence, facts, statistics will make them see reason.
I shall find you, yes.
13 March 2009 at 5:41 pm
chHoRh na palahalli…
I said, I’m done. I’m done discussing important issues with morons like you.
13 March 2009 at 6:07 pm
Heckler,
>> So your cousin is the expert on stats? Then why were you attempting the analysis instead of her??? I’m glad you had to go to her. ;-)
Why not, when you can try to step in the shoes of greats like Ahluwalia and Dr.Singh :)
BTW, she didnt have a single problem with my analysis of the data. I learnt it for like 3 years in school.
>> I was wondering why despite your barbs like stupid, foolish etc., was I being generally nice to you. Then I realised that your name threw up feminine connotations & in my mind I was talking to you as if I was talking to a lady. One thing at least you have going for you! ;-)
Haha. Shows your convent upbringing. Cant help. There is a famous kannada lyricist by name Geetapriya. Of course that will also sound effeminate to morons like you.
>> I’m surprised that your gold-medallist in stats cousin could only muster up a laugh instead of pertinent commentary on the graph.
Of course, what else can she do. Write a commentary on your graphs and be stripped of her gold medal and her degree? :P
Anyway, thanks for all the fun.
Palahalli,
Kudos to you :)
Simple,
Good, that you have mellowed down from Gujarat should follow only karnataka model stance. First time that I see you speak some sense. Appreciated. :)
13 March 2009 at 8:48 pm
k~priya,
Since you’re uncorrupted by a convent (or a public school) education, you’ll probably be familiar with the story of Shikhandi?
Both ~priya names remind me of that little chapter from mythology… :-)
Watching your commitment to the wrong cause & your flip-flops (when confronted with data & questions that you don’t have answers to), also remind me of Shikhandi! So much in common…! From today, you will be always remind me of Shikhandi.
I’m very glad that my education didn’t turn me into an anti-national element who classifies people based on whether they belong to a minority or a caste. Don’t you wish you had my education…? :-)
There’s still time in case you’re interested…
Anyway…
13 March 2009 at 9:15 pm
Kharaharapriya
People in the Karnataka BJP say that they will follow Gujarat model of govt.
Not a single BJP man in Gujarat, say they will follow Karnataka model of Govt.
This, inspite of the fact that Karnataka is ahead of Gujarat in many aspects of development.
This is an insult to the people of Karnataka and Kannadigas. And people like you do nothing to correct this misconception. You worsen the situation by admiring Gujarat by saying nothing good about Karnataka!
And COngrats, for finally agreeing that Gujarat is not necessarily the number one state in India.
Good Show Maga.
13 March 2009 at 10:08 pm
Heckler,
Go do some introspection dear. Put up a mirror in front of your face and look it up. I wont even call you a Shikandi. It’s an insult to Shikandi if equate him with you.
Surely i am glad that I don’t have an education like you where in I poke my nose without having knowledge of Data Interpretation, Varience etc etc.
I surely dont need a nationalist certificate from you.
14 March 2009 at 12:37 am
That was quick. The score is ZERO questions.
So, Shriman Heckler has either not responded to and/or obfuscated 100% of my responses in order to avoid embarrassing himself.
Rootless Heckler was never any good with comprehending his own links. No surprise that he hasn’t this time too.
He links to information about Shikhandi and then tells us that like Shikhandi, we, ie Hindutva-vadis and/or supporters of Modi are;
1. Wedded to the wrong cause
2. Revel in flip-flops
I mean..how utterly silly can a Liberal actually get?? Did he even review the information contained in his own link before messing this thread with his verbal diarrhea?
I’m pretty certain he knows jack about Hindu mythology or tradition.
But this goombah is right about one thing though.
Us non-convent educated fellows actually ARE aware of our traditions and culture and so can NEVER be ashamed of Shikhandi.
It’s also great that we will remind Heckler of Shikhandi every time he thinks of these eventful (for him) days.
I’d say that’s for his own good.
14 March 2009 at 1:59 am
Heck heckler
I don’t want to respond .. but what to do ?
“http://churumuri.wordpress.com/2009/01/31/gujarat-was-vibrant-long-before-narendra-modi/#comment-100147″
Please see this comment and tell me are there no questions?
“To ignore that modi has (despite the class specific industrial growth rate) failed on many other facets of development is a blunder that Naidu’s PR machine had made earlier. You’re welcome to make it too. :-)”
This is not the point of discussion. here the question is “is modi done enough of what he claims”.. and I say he has. You don’t even know what issue we are debating. so, your one cent is useless…
“Exposing your lack of reason, logic & your bias was on my agenda. I’m done. :-)”
ayya/amma heckler
please delude your self and be happy about it. Au contraire Pal, Kpriya and to a small extend I have demonstrated your total lack of knowledge, reason and logic… But we gotta give it up to your talent for confusing with your mile-long replies that go nowhere and end up in name calling :-)
“You don’t need to say it. Your defending modi makes it obvious.”
Ok… recognizing facts is “rightist” ? so be it.. I am one. fine ?
“Stop making excuses for not having the guts to confront a dictionary. :”
Now I don’t even know what the heck are you referring to ?? Looks like your confuse strategy works again !!
After reading your comment
“Both ~priya names remind me of that little chapter from mythology… :-)”
I can only despair at your “convent education” … Good going akka/anna!
14 March 2009 at 5:58 am
Hello Heckler and Simple. I am really impresed. You both have given a fitting reply to these cheddiwallahs. Instead of answering questions posed by you, they are into personal attacks since they have no answers.
Simple:you can never find a state that is tops on all aspects of development.
Thats true. States collectively make a nation. We should be bothered about nation.
I would also like to be with like-minded like you. I will find you guys. We should form a Third front against these cheddiwallahs.
Palahalli, Sandesh and watever~priya dont resort to personal attacks. Have guts?, then answer.
14 March 2009 at 2:27 pm
I think all rightist minded bloggers have joined together and trying their utmost to suppress the facts, rightly shown by Heckler.
I am voicing my opinion favouring Heckler & Simple, for showing the forum that there is only a small minority who want to destroy the secular
fabric of our Great Country. And the majority of India wants to live in peace with people of all relegions and castes.
Great going Heckler and Simple. I have truly benefited from all the facts you have presented. Hopefully it will help me convince people in my circle of influence.
14 March 2009 at 4:55 pm
Ashoka
How can it be a simple minority if both the “rightists” and “leftists” have equal numbers ???
Forgot some simple math eh ?
14 March 2009 at 6:39 pm
Ashoka, Dandapani
Thank you. people like Sandesh and Palahalli and whateverpriya are beyond reasoning.
They haven’t been able to point out a single good feature about karnataka vis a vis Gujarat.
And these are the people enjoying the delicious fruits of living in Karntaka and show no gratitude to karnataka!
Karnataka is a warm welcoming place. It welcomes people from all over India, even Gujaratis are welcom to do here, prosper and flourish.
14 March 2009 at 8:19 pm
Sandesh,
Buddy. You are wrong, they are a majority. They have some Dandapinda joining in . Suits them well :)
16 March 2009 at 4:59 pm
I understand k~priya. Nationalist Certificates are handed out only by a sanghie. You can’t be a nationalist unless you’re associated with them? Right? ;-) I understand… :-)
A few candid admissions as I leave from here:
- The gold medallist statement wasn’t even a question. :-D
It was a comment on the displayed behaviour. I wonder why you felt compelled to answer that? Are you always on the defensive?
See what habits you develop from being on the side of the wrong…?
- I finally understood why you’ve been defending modi’s failures on Governance & Social Indices…! You see, the rightists/conservatives/extremists in Indian society have always had a divisive mindset. As you’ve just demonstrated, they tend to view humans based on which caste, minority etc. they come from. It’s obvious that you & your ilk will celebrate this “selective development”.
- Therefore, I’m also no longer surprised at your “firm” belief that growth rate is the only factor that needs considering. Nor at your refusal to accept that failing on other parameters does count as exactly that: Failure.
Nor at your ilk’s desire to accord Sheila Dikshit the same (forget greater) respect for 3 untainted successive development based victories!
Nor at your unwillingness to acknowledge Dr. Manmohan Singh as one of the Father’s of Indian Economic Reform. No, this glance into your minds was much needed. I’m not surprised anymore.
You’re welcome to your lack of reason, partiality & obstinacy. It is a define feature of your ilk.
- your hero in dire need of your defending was in Pune recently. And was holding forth on how a Maharashtrian will not be PM on account of Pawar’s false moves. I’m left wondering how shallow any man’s thinking will be who is restricted by thoughts around which sub-type among Indians should be PM.
Another telling comment on the clannish, divisive, anti-National mindset of the creature under discussion?
_____
pal~…
I don’t think anyone with a modicum of intelligence would be clebrating the drying up of the questions. You see, initially I assumed you were given to logic & reason, so I put forward questions to you. But then you demonstrated that you were lacking in that area. Then I tried teaching you; but you demonstrated an unwillingness to learn. So I stopped wasting my time on you. That’s all. The questions have dried up because I consider you unworthy.
Once you’re done ranting, come back after a month or more to this forum & read in peace. It will help you.
And on Hindu mythology or on Hinduism, you’re welcome to start a thread on that topic. If you have a blog, start it there, give us a link & we’ll gladly have one. On one condition though. You will adopt a non-denail, non-defensive stance on that discussion at least. Game?
______
sandesh,
Went to that link. Er… Where are the questions again? Are there any questions for me in that text? It seems more like a reply to my points. Which by the way is more than anything your friends have attempted! So kudos!
I think you will find the point of discussion in Churumuri’s post. Please go thru the main post once again for a better grasp of what myths we were seeking to dispel here, and what the commenters started saying. Essentially proving Churumuri right.
:-) I think we’re at a stalemate. I’ve presented link after link proving that all isn’t well in the state of gujurat & therefore the celebrations are unjustified. # 1 on growth rate doesn’t mean # 1 overall. It’s done poorly on other equally important development parameters. If you cannot see the reason & logic in this argument & the links, I’m afraid I can’t do much else. I can only try to show the true picture. If you guys want to ignore it & call me deluded, you’re welcome to. The truth doesn’t change by your burying your head in the sand. From my perspective it’s you guys who’re deluding yourselves. Like I said, it’s a stalemate.
Just because you don’t know what I’m referring to, doesn’t make me wrong. You’ve just lost track. Your fault. To remind you, I was referring to pal~’s unwillingness to quote the dictionary definition of “Liberal” to further our debate on that point & to k~priya’s unwillingness to define Administration. And you have the gall to suggest that I am trying to confuse the issue??? Au contraire my friend. I was trying to push the discussion towards greater clarity. But for reasons best known to you guys, you didn’t want to bite the bait. Your life; up to you. :-D
You last “despairing” comment only shows how you are blind to the name calling that your friends were indulging in. But then again, I never knew a right-winger to be fair. :-)
Sionaya. I get off here.
_____
Dandapinda, Ashoka, Simple… the Good Guys… :-)
How do we propose to get in touch with each other?
I’ve gotten 2 things out of this discussion:
1. Learnt not to try & reason with a right-winger.
2. But more importantly, found 3 like-minded friends. :-)
16 March 2009 at 8:33 pm
Heckler at his dishonest best :)
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Pune/Cong-has-shut-doors-on-Marati-manoos-as-PM-Modi/articleshow/4269032.cms
This is Modi’s speech as reported – What is wrong with his admonishing Pawar’s lack of judgment? Btw, is not Pawar cozying up to the Shiv Sena? Is he not a (former (?) Congress man?
But that’s not even the issue.
Let’s see
1. MM Singh hailed as the first Sikh PM is OK
2. Pratibha Patil as first woman President is OK
3. Deve Gowda as first Kannadiga PM is OK
4. Rahul baba being proposed and seconded on strength of his being Rajkumar of the Gandhi dynasty is OK
But Modi is rotten for recognizing a fact.
****
MM Singh, “one of the fathers”??? One of them?? Now you tell me!
I’m fine with him being “one” of the fathers. There have been many others.
But this is a major meltdown of Heckler’s earlier fanatical stance :)
Debate on religion? Why would I want to waste more time with a fellow who has proved himself unworthy of even copying meaning off of a wiki site??
As for me celebrating the drying up of questions; I had thought it was the end of sheer torture :)
But you came back…again with nothing but more humbug.
Very sad.
16 March 2009 at 9:05 pm
pal~…
Dishonest??? Where did you get that? Even after I’ve given up on you totally, your abyssmal comprehension continues to confound me!!!
Just in case you didn’t get the English straight, I’ll repeat it for you. My comment is on you being unable to see modi as petty & small-minded for not being able to rise above belonging to states instead of the Country.
I never cared for Manmohan being a Sikh or Gowda being Kannadiga. I care about good people coming in, that’s all.
It’s not a meltdown of my stance at all. It’s the language you understand. Most national issues are team efforts, yet one man stands out. So there was a Constituent Assembly & all them were potentially the fathers of our constitution, but Dr. Ambedkar is given that epithet because he led it. So to you Dr. Singh is one of the fathers (good enough for me). Whether he will be recognized by Global posterity as the father of Indian Economic Reforms, we’ll have to see. :-)
Running scared huh? Don’t want to lose another debate & be publicly embarassed? I can understand that.
THAT is what is sad my friend. For you. Not for me. :-)
16 March 2009 at 9:16 pm
Heckler,
>> Nationalist Certificates are handed out only by a sanghie. You can’t be a nationalist unless you’re associated with them?
I told I dont need a nationalist certificate from a liar like you. Why bring in the sangh here?
>> – The gold medallist statement wasn’t even a question. :-D
Same here. The nationalist certificate I talked of in the previous post wasnt even a question. Why did you respond? :)
>> I finally understood why you’ve been defending modi’s failures on Governance & Social Indices…!
Define failures and governance.
>> Therefore, I’m also no longer surprised at your “firm” belief that growth rate is the only factor that needs considering.
Prove it when did I say growth rate is the only factor. But growth rate surely encompasses a plethora of factors. Pick up some basic economics text book and study for yourselves.
>> Nor at your ilk’s desire to accord Sheila Dikshit the same (forget greater) respect for 3 untainted successive development based victories!
Nor at your unwillingness to acknowledge Dr. Manmohan Singh as one of the Father’s of Indian Economic Reform
Did we even discuss sheela or manmohan at any point of time? Or did you even discuss that? Dude you didnt even point @ delhi as a state once. All the while you were shouting Haryana, Jharkhand. Typical confuse attitude. Decide for yourselves whom you wanna follow. Man your statements lack consistency, VARIANCE is too high. :)
>> your hero in dire need of your defending was in Pune recently. And was holding forth on how a Maharashtrian will not be PM on account of Pawar’s false moves. I’m left wondering how shallow any man’s thinking will be who is restricted by thoughts around which sub-type among Indians should be PM.
Another telling comment on the clannish, divisive, anti-National mindset of the creature under discussion?
Haha. The so called “secular” NCP itself says India needs a maharastrian PM, you dont have anything to say about it. Modis statements are far better, than claiming credit for slumdog.
Modi’s statement is far more logical than any of your “excel”lent analysis and the variance graphs. </b
16 March 2009 at 10:00 pm
Heckler
“Just because you don’t know what I’m referring to, doesn’t make me wrong. You’ve just lost track. Your fault. ”
You see, when I talk to you, I quote you (like above) and then make my point. This is how you converse on a blog.. when there are numerous comments.. its just very difficult to wade through endless comments… So, its not my “fault” ..
“And you have the gall to suggest that I am trying to confuse the issue??? ”
Well, from the start I have been saying that you tend to confuse more than clarify.. and I stick to the point!.. giving mile long replies to one/two line comments is your specialty!!
“ame calling that your friends were indulging in.”
Just go through the comments and check who started the name calling first. Don’t try to get onto the high pedestal… trying to link Kpriya to Gpriya and then ShikanDi… shows how much you lost the plot baby.. Hence my despair at your “convent education” :)
From my link
1. “BTW, why I should NOT respect TOI and “at least” respect IE ? Do you mean to say that you trust IE more than TOI (else, you wouldn’t have told me not to respect it) ? … So, why quote from TOI at all ??”
2. “Look, its called marketing. And who says others have not done anything? Did I say that ? Did modi say that (these are what Kpriya has been asking). Its just that Modi markets well…So does Mu Ka (in the hindu). And all politicians (A Soni for example, claims credit for oscars, bringing gandhi’s articles back… so on). Who stops other cm’s from marketing themselves ??”
3. “I am curious to know the positions of other states vis-a-vis gujarat. That is what is being contested here .. not modi’s actions in 2002 (the third last para of the above link..)… courts can/should handle that (I remember you are the one who said that first.. and somehow, you’ve made a 180 degree turnaround).”
[This was not question.. but a query on your links... you got to justify what you are talking... unless you don't have anything to justify]
Eega heLu taayi/tandi…. questions irlilva ????
Sigona… innoo matadtidre bari time waste agutte ashte…
16 March 2009 at 10:17 pm
Whether influenced by dumb leftist ideology or the lunatic right all men are just the same beneath the surface- why drag ‘ shikhandi’ into your natakada dialogues ?!