Should India do to Pakistan what it’s done to us?

SHARANYA KANVILKAR writes from Bombay: Arun Shourie is one of the strangest cases on the Indian intellectual landscape if not its most disappointing. A living, walking, moving advertisement of how rabid ideology can addle even the most riveting of minds, stripping it of all its nuance and pretence; its very soul and humanity.

***

Once a fiery critic of Reliance Industries as editor of the Indian Express, he was happy to deliver a eulogy at Dhirubhai Ambani‘s first death anniversary; even changing the law as minister to benefit Reliance Industries, as alleged by the son of Girilal Jain, the former Times of India editor who held shares in the company, no less.

Once a symbol of middle-class integrity and probity for various scams unearthed his watch, his stint as disinvestment minister was pockmarked with allegation after allegation (although an unattributed Wikipedia entry claims he was ranked “the most outstanding minister of the Atal Behari Vajpayee government” by 100 CEOs).

A slow, scholarly, Chaplinesque demeanour hides a cold, clinical mind that piles the rhetoric and the stereotypes on the poor, the marginalised and the disenfranchised while taking up high faluting positions on terrorism, governance, internal security and such like, through long, meandering essays whose opacity could put cub journalists to shame.

And, as always, selectively twisting and turning the facts to fit his preconceived conclusion, and hoping no one will notice.

To paraphrase Ramachandra Guha, Shourie has become the Arundhati Roy of the right:

“The super-patriot and the anti-patriot use much the same methods. Both think exclusively in black and white. Both choose to use a 100 words when 10 will do. Both arrogate to themselves the right to hand out moral certificates. Those who criticise Shourie are characterised as anti-national, those who dare take on Roy are made out to be agents of the State. In either case, an excess of emotion and indignation drowns out the facts.”

But what should disappoint even his most ardent fans, and there are many, is how easily and effortlessly a pacifist penman has regressed from “a concerned citizen employing his pen as an effective adversary of corruption, inequality and injustice” (as his Magsaysay Award citation read) to a hate-spewing ideological warrior with fire blazing through his nostrils.

A son of a Gandhian who now openly advocates “two eyes for an eye and a whole jaw for one tooth” with barely any qualms.

***

At a series of lectures in Ahmedabad on Saturday, Shourie bared his fangs some more:

“India is still a passive country when it comes to taking a stand against terrorism….

It should, in fact, take an extremist stance and must prove that it can also create a Kashmir-like situation in Pakistan.

There are many places like Baluchistan, where a Kashmir-like situation can be created but, “hum abhi bhi Panchsheel ke pujari hain (We still worship the tenets of Panchsheel)”….

“Pakistan has been successfully carrying out destruction in India for the last two decades and has still managed to escape problems, while India on every occasion has failed to present a unified response to terrorism and has suffered as a consequence….”

Really?

An eye for an eye? Two eyes for an eye? A jaw for a tooth?

In the name of Swami Vivekananda, should India do unto Pakistan what Pakistan has done to us? Is this a sign of vision on the part of a man who some believe should be the next prime minister, or tunnel vision?

Is such barely disguised hatred and vengeance, hiding behind vedas and upanishads, going to make the subcontinent a better place to live in? Should the people of Pakistan, the poor, the marginalised, the disenfranchised, pay the price for the sins of the generals?

Should a great, ancient civilisation become a cheap, third-rate, neighbourhood bully?

Has Arun Shourie lost more than his soul and humanity?

Has Arun Shourie just lost it?

Photograph: courtesy The Hindu Business Line

Also read: How Shilpa Shetty halted the Chinese incursions

Crossposted on sans serif

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48 Responses to “Should India do to Pakistan what it’s done to us?”

  1. Palahalli Says:

    SHARANYA KANVILKAR is extremely funny!

    ***

    After reading Bharati Jaganathan’s, write-up in one of the links attached, I found Arun Shourie’s prescription too mild and limited in its scope.

    What about traitors within this country?

    ***

    I don’t see anything wrong in what Shourie spoke about D Ambani.

    http://www.ril.com/downloads/pdf/Arun%20Shourie.PDF

    And here is what S Gurumurthy has to say about Ambani too.

    http://www.gurumurthy.net/articledisplay.pl?2002-07-12

    After reading Gurumurthy, one tends to empathize with an Ambani.

  2. Not A Witty Nick Says:

    I thought this sort of idiotic quibble were churned out only by our politicians.

  3. clash Says:

    “There are many places like Baluchistan, where a Kashmir-like situation can be created….. anyway i did not have nay high regard for this pencil mustachioed journo manipulator.

    After these remarks, he has bandied his nonsense publicly and has catered to the Army Chiefs in Pakistan, who are claiming that India and RAW is helping out Taliban in their SWAT valley and NWFP.

    Pakistan is disintegrating in to a lawless situation and now that Richard hallbrook; the man who personally oversaw the balkanisation off European nations like Yugoslavia is down to broker the situation, we might find a bloody solution to this fracas.

    I wonder if the CIA, FBI cohorts in India have any idea that India is also involved in the greater middle-east plan of USA? Is it any wonder that some army officer who is trial for Malegaon blathered about the plan of CIA to disintegrate in Indian in to 15 smaller nations?

    I know it is a far fetched thought but these kind of plans are covertly employed over the years and have been brought to fruition by CIA and their looneys. If they can woo afghan war lords using Viagra, they will resort to meaner ways to achieve their goal.

    And all we need is Shourie kinda hacks!

  4. Anon Says:

    The complete exposure of AS and his sanctimonius self righteousness came in July 2003. On the first anniversary of the passing away of Dhirubhai Ambani there was a commemorative lecture delivered by Prez Kalam at NCPA, Mumbai. The crawling that many political stalwarts engaged in, on that occasion publicly in front of the scions of the Ambani clan was seen to be believed. Mulayam Singh said candidly that he would not be what he is in national politics, but for DHA. The ebullient Pramod Mahajan took a broadside at his own government and said we give Bharat Ratna’s to gaanewale and bajaanewale (obviously referring to Bismillah Khan et al) but not to a real Ratna like DHA and so on. But Arun Shourie took the cake by his snivelling obsequiousness and publicly pleaded for forgiveness for righting his “investigative reports” in the Indian Express against the shenanigans of DHA in the Patalganga plant case in the eighties. He said “instead of giving DHA a medal, we were hounding him”. To top it all, our ace investigative journalist and conscience keeper of the nation blamed S Gurumurthy for misleading him into exposing DHA…..Boy what depths can one sink to!!

  5. ashwini prasad Says:

    i like AS what he has told is right in case of pakisthan.Terrorism have to be answered in their language itself otherwise more attacks will continue,humanism and other beautifull words are just nice to hear i belevie only hypocrates use it to escape the situationwe still follow panchsheel and vote bank politicsand just one family ruling our country for decades .AS has gotgreal concerned about our country so his opinion

  6. hkollar Says:

    BJP has become a party of people ‘who have lost it’. It has lost its soul in quest for power. Otherwise, a senile old man won’t bring back ram mandir to the agenda, that’s already overloaded with Economic downturn and terrorism.

    It won’t let people run running around claiming to safeguard Hindu Culture, by marrying any couple on the streets (even if they are brother-sister)!

    What is the culture all these idiots are talking about? Bharata (Which in Sanskrit means ‘Seeker and maintainer of Knowledge’) is a country named after a King, who was born out of wed-lock (Gandharva Vivaha – a name given to unions without anyone else’s consent). I guess BJP has forgotten Dushyanta-Shakuntala story?

    Or has it forgotten the man who wrote Mahabharat & by some accounts even the Vedas. Vyasa was born to the lust of Parashar rishi for Satyavati. There wasn’t even a cover of Gandharava Marriage in this case. It was plain and simple sex before marriage!!

    How can a party, which doesn’t know its Purana’s claim to represent a culture, which is clearly Victorian – Not Indian???!!!!!

  7. Siddharth Singh Says:

    I have used your article (no not copy-pasted, it’s just a link) on my blog at http://bigotblog.wordpress.com/2009/02/16/the-bjps-foreign-policy/

    It’s on what BJP’s foreign policy would look like. Because I can’t imagine it to be very different from this.

    Your article could not have been written better.

  8. Alok Says:

    Well.. the SWAT valley has now been officially ceded by Pakistan to the Taliban as a base for future operations into Afghanistan… so that’s that for “causing trouble” there.

    On a matter of principle, there is nothing we can do to Pakistan it is not already doing to itself. The Government in Islamabad is slowly realizing that it is soon going to be in the same position as Hamid Karzai in Afghanistan and are trying all means to ensure that they cling to power in the Punjabi heartland at least (and maybe Sind).

    This macho bullshit on the part of BJP’s mouthpieces, OTOH, is quite amusing all the same.

  9. hkollar Says:

    Oh BTW.

    This talk of doing a Pakistan on Pakistan is a big mistake.

    When you arm an unaccountable militia (or cache of people), you run the risk of they turning on to you with the same weapons!! Has happened every time when someone armed one non-state group against other.

    Have we forgotten LTTE or Bindranwale?

    It is quite possible Pakistan will collapse without our help, but the last thing we should do is to have the blood of innocent pakistani’s on our hands.

    It is estimated that about 1/3rd of Pakistan is religiously fanatic. It is perhaps a little more fanatical than India. But the reality is Majority of Pakistan is not fanatical and is largely sensible.

    They should be given every opportunity to stand up to their tormentors, and tyrants. The people who are leading an uprising in Northern and western pakistan are Taliban-infected militia. Once they succeed from Pakistan, they will raid on pakistan, and then they will target India.

    Why would we want to invite that on us???

  10. Gururaj B.N. Says:

    Do you not reasonably expect people to change and change their views. Do you think everyone is frozen in time like the Indian communists? What is wrong, if Arun Shourie has changed over time? Reliance is far less an enemy than Pakistan, Bangladesh, china and the enemies within our borders. Arun Shourie’s depth of study gives him confidence to take on anyone. Secularists spend so much time in polemics, they are hardly left with any time for research and study. Usually they should be conent mouthing Romilla Thapar, or Ramachandra Guha.

    Lokmanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak said “shatham prati shatyam”, “wickedness towards the wicked”. At least someone in Indian public life has the honesty and guts to give voice to what millions of Indians feel. It is only in India that anti-national Huriyat leaders were allowed to meet Mussharaf. Would you expect that Advani would have been allowed to meet Balochi leaders during his “Jinnah is secular” visit?

    It is true that due to nuclear empowerment of both India and Pakistan, war is not an option right now. But, that does not mean that Indians cannot even discuss the option of confrontation with Pakistan. The leadership in India and the intellectuals seem to have become impotents.

  11. Bhamy V Shenoy Says:

    I am dumbfounded. I never thought that Arun Shourie will talk like this. Ramachandra Guha’s metaphor of AR and AS is a good one.

    At this rate AS will start losing his credibility.

    He has not bothered to really study the problem to give such non sensensical prescription of India doing to Pakistan what they have done to India. It is not Pakistan which is doing this. It is the clash of civilization and it is far more dangerous. I would have expected far more insightful thinking than Shourie.

  12. Palahalli Says:

    Well..well..the main article itself preaches “virtuous suicide” to Hindus.

    Arun Shourie has argued against such a course and argued for intrusive involvement in Pakistan. (Alok’s “macho bullshit”)

    The fact that Pakistan is falling apart all by itself is of no consolation. The likes of some commenters and not to forget Sharanya and Bharati will then speak glowingly about our capacity to sit tight when the Taliban is nibbling away on our Western borders.

    Shri Kollar says ;

    “It is estimated that about 1/3rd of Pakistan is religiously fanatic. It is perhaps a little more fanatical than India. But the reality is Majority of Pakistan is not fanatical and is largely sensible.”

    – Can I, with some amount of satisfaction say; “Hindus, perhaps have a little less Pakistani blood on their hands? Not as much Hindu blood as Pakistan does on it’s, but a little less than that??”

    We all know the answer; No Pakistani blood at all. That’s not virtue..that’s lifelessness.

  13. rs Says:

    “should be far more insightful”,”lost his credibility”…common guys,
    even shishupala was allowed to make only 100 mistakes by SriKrishna.
    when he committed the 101th , he was punished instantly. we have been trying enough from the past 60 years to tolerate the atrocities of Pakistan.They have always been telling lies, insurging pakistanis into Kashmir and what not, AR has rightfully voiced the opinion of millions of Indians.
    Infact i feel we should treat the NorthWest region of Pakistan in the same way as US did with Afghanistan.

  14. karan Says:

    BJP has truely lost it. The last hope has also been shattered due to its lust for power. No discipline and total lack of commitment is driving the BJP down a deep precipice.

  15. Aravind Says:

    HAS CHURUMURI LOST ITS MIND? THIS IS A RIDICULOUS AND STUPID PIECE! And I am not a fan of Shourie.

    Is it blasphemy if Arun Shourie expresses a view that perhaps India should encourage an insurgency in Pakistan just like Pakistan has formented terrorism in India? Whats wrong if someone expresses a view that India should bleed Pakistan the way Pakistan bleeds India. How many of us have not felt the same at some point? I admire Churumuri’s sympathy for the poor and disenfranchised in Pakistan. But what about the poor in India who die in terrorist attacks.

    And by the way, India has never been epitome of peace in its pursuit of defence and foreign policy. Didn’t India harbor and aid the Mukti Bahini militancy in the then East Pakistan and help create Bangladesh. Weren’t we a “neighbourhood bully” then? Why doesnt Churumuri castigate Indira Gandhi for that? And for your kind information, India has in the past, and even today, encouraged and aided separatists in Pakistan, in Baluchistan and Sindh. (India has more consulates in Afghanistan than even the US. It would be naive to think that all the people in these consulates are there to build roads in Afghanistan!) India has of course actively aided anti-Taliban (i.e. anti-Pakistan) forces in Afghanistan. India has also meddled in Sri Lanka (we trained and armed the LTTE) and Myanmar. Please read this:

    http://www.cfr.org/publication/17707/raw.html

    As this paper points out, India used to have “covert intelligence teams (CITs)” in Pakistan which even carried out “low grade” bomb attacks in Pakistan. When Gujral was the PM, the CITs in Pakistan were disbanded. Intelligence experts like the Outlook columnist B. Raman continue to criticize this move by Gujral to disband the CITs in Pakistan because the “assets” created by RAW after many decades of work had to be abandoned diminishing India’s “covert” capabilities in Pakistan.

    Foreign policy is not for the faint hearted. We may subscribe to “panchsheel”, but there is no point in pursuing it if other countries (like our northern neighbour) don’t respect it. If by encouraging insurgencies in Pakistan we can weaken Pakistan and thereby improve our bargaining position in any future peace talks, it is an option worth considering.

  16. neel123 Says:

    Those who oppose people like Arun Shorey, need to answer why India, after 60 years of independence, is a third rate nation, inspite of its rich natural and human resources ? Why has India allowed itself to be ruined by a single ( Nehru , gandhi ) family, surrounded by a bunch of thugs in the guise of politicians ?
    If there were some more people like Arun Shorey in Indian public life, India would not be a soft nation as it is today, run by a bunch of incompetent, spineless and corrupt politicians, bureaucrats and Govt. officials !
    India, even after 60 years of it’s independence, continues to be a third rated nation, because there are enemies within. It is time to expose and hang the enemies within. India must be able to get rid of the enemies within, if it has to fight external threats effectively !

  17. Tathagata Mukherjee Says:

    I would like to know what Ramchandra Guhas want to do while India bleeds, more than Iraq in last 5 years, 100,000 in last 2 decades? There is no rational, statist, modern, secular Pakistani constituency. With whom he will discuss the issue?

    When Pakistani elite, state, PM, President announce Behtulla Mehsud, the Talibani commander as “Patriotic Pakistani”, what option other option we have? Pakistan sees nationalist Baluchi movement, or Pakhtuns as bigger threat than Taliban. That’s why its sponsoring Talibani Islamization in Baluchistan, NWFP.

    Here is a great piece by Sushant Sareen that analyzed the issue in a recent piece in the Tribune that analyzed the issue of Taliban in Pakistan, and why for India it makes sense to attack Pakistan’s eastern border so Talibans can control

    http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20090214/edit.htm#4

    “And now if the clean-shaven, Western suit-attired, public-school educated, English-speaking, whisky-swilling, mujra-watching Taliban are replaced by the hirsute, shalwar-wearing, Urdu-speaking, madarsa educated Taliban, all that will happen is that the double-speaking, double-dealing, duplicitous behaviour will end, as will the hypocritical expressions of seeking friendship with India. ”

    Shourie makes eminent sense.

  18. shyodha Says:

    On a day our barbarian neighbour has been forced by its 6th centuray throwback Talebaan to impose ISLAMIC LAW, YOU have chosen to take a swipe at Arun Shourie.

    Figures.

    —-===—
    PESHAWAR, Pakistan – The government agreed to impose Islamic law and suspend a military offensive across much of northwest Pakistan on Monday in concessions aimed at pacifying the Taliban insurgency spreading from the border region to the country’s interior.
    —-===—

  19. hkollar Says:

    Palahalli,

    You are right in saying we have very less Pakistani blood on our hands. But, to think no blood at all is to be a bit naive.

    But, I don’t see how a solution can be reached by being more bloodier to innocents that the bloody idiotic ideologists of Pakistan?

    If there is a way to only hurt the Fanatics of Pakistan, such a measure is welcome, but the reality of Shourie type solution is – we go and give arms to one bunch of Fanatics to deal with another. Sooner or later those fanatics will turn on us with the same weapons.

    This is what has been the folly of all American policies. Give weapons to Taliban, oh they turned – now give weapons to Pakistan army. Now they too will turn against US sometime and US will fight to remove those arms.

    Just imagine this: In Iraq US has already lost more soldiers than India has ever lost in any of its full-scale wars with pakistan! Here are the estimates.

    1947 war – 1500
    1965 war – 2800
    1971 war – 3800
    Kargil war – 527

    Us in reality fights and looses its soldiers to the weapons it provided (free or for a price) to tyrants!

    Is it your case we too do that?

    We can wish for Pakistan to collapse, but with that collapse we will have barbarians at our gate. And these barbarians have nothing to live for.

    It is in our interest to make sure the people who have something to live for are strengthened and not weakened.

  20. Vinay Says:

    Understand, especially the ‘educated’ folks here, that “those who do not learn lessons from contemporary history are condemned to repeat it.”

    Even after looking at Khalistan, LTTE and Pakistan’s multiple Mujahideens, people do not seem to get the point that terrorism is something that rebounds on the creator. It’s like a demon that you cannot hold in thrall for long. And these educated people claim high moral ground that “India has not engaged in low terror tactics, see how straight we are, and look at Pakistan!!”, while they are happy now at a suggestion to inflict clandestine terror on Pakistan. Hypocrisy, no?

    If we are scared of going to war, we’ve got to strengthen our defenses – our borders, our intelligence, our police, and so on. Or we could hit them openly, through economic and diplomatic means, since we are scared of nuclear war (which is btw just a Pakistani blackmailing tactic).

    Encouraging the proliferation of terror groups is something that only an utterly asinine mind can come up with.

  21. babuds Says:

    Arun Shourie has made himself irrelevant by jumping into mainstream politics.

    So unlike Churumuri we will discuss matters more relevant than Shourie, especially the one raised by “Clash” at his post above.

    I dont beleive USA has approved plans to break India into 15 or more nations, but the Obama Admin has definitely plans to cut Kashmir out of India. This is evident from the op-ed “Pakistan stumps us again” in IE at

    http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?Title=Pakistan+stumps+us+again&artid=Ahk1Vuo8MfI=&SectionID=XVSZ2Fy6Gzo=&MainSectionID=XVSZ2Fy6Gzo=&SEO=Shah+Mehmood+Qureshi,+Pakistan,+Kashmir,+India&SectionName=m3GntEw72ik=

    Pakistan is able to convince the world leaders that India is a cry baby and its cries about the Mumbai attack need not be listened to.

    Joe Biden snubs Afghan’s karzai by saying that Pakistan is 50 times more important to us/US than Afghanistan. Which implicitly means Pak is more important to Joe than India.

    In the recent words of Mr. Obama, stability (economic and Political) of Pakistan is of utmost important in the sub-continent; which means more $$$ and lot of arms to Pakistan. This is also a barely concealed warning to India against any kind of military adventurism.

    The suave foreign affairs minister of Pak Mr. Qureshi, at the Munich security confernce Feb 6-8, was able to sell the concept to other nations that issues like Kashmir are the root cause of terrorism and using military might is not a solution to fight it. The best solution to defeat terrorism is economic development of Pakistan, for which $$$ from US, Pounds from UK, Yens from Japan and other such Swiss-bankable currency is sought from rest of the jokers, who attended the conference.

    In the same Conference Joe Biden, VP of USA reads from the speech, which appears to have been scripted by Pakis, which seconds the $$$ solution given by Qureshi to combat terrorism.

    With due apologies to Mr. Biden, for using his phrase, can we say “The external affairs ministry of Pakistan is 50 times more effective than that of India” ?

    When Chinese said Arunachal is part of China, nobody including US lifted an eyelid. They have a policy of playing with the hares and hunting with the hounds.

    Of late Obama and US senate are intent on harming India on the economic front too, through their protectionist policies of banning H1-B employment and stopping outsourcing. Where as on the other hand they want to pump $$$ and arms into Pakistan, knowing much of it will flow into swiss accounts and arms into the hands of Jihadi groups in Pakistan, for attacking Indians and killing them.

    The statement of Mr. Milliband, UK, on the Kashmir issue, naively reveals the nexus of US-UK-Pak regarding their plans for Kashmir.

    With so much happening around, our ext. aff. ministry still maintains that all options are still open. The problem is all options have expired long back due to gross indecision and we are left option-less, and have to brace ourselves for the next attack. The next time we can only represent to US and UK to advise their buddy Pakistan to control the Kashmir freedom fighters (not terrorists) of Pakistan not to make aggressions into India and kill Indian citizens indiscriminately.

  22. Rooney Says:

    The only reason not to start a war against Pakistan is that it will delay its death. India has a responsibility to liberate the Baloch one day.

    Guys, please read Arun Shourie’s speech before commenting.

  23. Sandeep Says:

    Surely poor people of Pakistan don’t deserve for the wrongs of the generals. But then who does? Is it our people who deserve to die? I wud prefer than theirs.

  24. Mysore Peshva Says:

    Arun Shourie is trying to emerge as an ideologue.

    Whether on the left or right, ideologues make for poor framers/executors of policy. That is simply not their role.

    Sharanya Kanvilkar is confusing ideology for policy. When Karl Marx is quoted for ideology, he comes out equally abominable. So does William Carlyle. So does Madhav Golwalkar.

    Ideology, by its very nature, cannot be centrist. That’s why nobody can celebrate Jawaharlal Nehru as an ideologue. In fact, historically centrist leaders like Nehru — with a possible exception of his daughter Indira during the Emergency — have all tended to sway in the direction of the popular breeze.

    We should not attach any pragmatic value to Shourie’s statements. His stated ideology is an extremist framework which is impossible to translate into action in any liberal democracy.

    I am sure the erudite Shourie knows that. His speech was clearly an attempt to impress the Hindu gallery in saffron Gujarat. Nothing more or less.

    So people, let’s stop condemning one of the few learned men in the BJP who actually reads, researches, and discusses before he opens his mouth in the Rajya Sabha.

    PS: Despite my current view, I am a fan of Shourie the journalist. His articles in the Indian Express in the early- and mid-1980s set a high bar for investigative journalism — a bar that most of today’s editors are not able to meet.

  25. dharma Says:

    When ever the BJP point out a mistake commited by the Congress the Congress hit back that such a thing happened during BJP rule also. Instead of taking a critisism, the Congress shows the past.
    Kashmir/Pakistan was a creation of the Congress party for which we are suffering now and will for ever, Can any other party split India showing the misdeed of the congress!? Tit for tat!

    ***

    A PEN is mightier than a SOWERD!

  26. kannadiga:) Says:

    I do not see anything wrong in what Arun Shourie is espousing. Enough of holding candles at wagah border. Left to themselves these Punjabi and Sardarji PM’s (Gujral & MM Singh) and their henchmen in the media (Kuldeep Nair, Kushwant Singh etc) will sell India for a song to the puki’s. High time the puki’s are shown that 2 can play these games and we should at once adopt the PVN doctrine of fomenting trouble in pukiland and make sure they are kept busy fighting fires in their own backyard.

  27. B.N.Gururaj Says:

    “selectively twisting facts and hoping that no one will notice”. Can the writer cite an example of how Arun Shourie has twisted facts? It is height of irresponsibility to make innuendos without illustrations.

    The pacifist tone of writer reminds of Mahatma Gandhi’s advise to victims of Lahore communal riots in 1925 that they should have stayed and died in the hands of Muslims rather than runaway from their place. The writer would rather not mind Pakistan killing and maiming Indians. But, any thought of reciprocating in kind seems inhumane, and abhorrent to the writer.

    Look at all the comments on this page! Herd mentality shows. Everyone denouncing the statement, without giving reasons.

  28. Melange Says:

    In a world of sterile Indian leftist pabulum, Shourie should be commended for having the cajones to stand apart. At least, He is is not one among the mindless sheep that all look alike in the Indian “intellectual” scene.

    Organized violence and it’s mastery is very important for the survival of any Nation. For too long the Indians have mouthed platitudes to asinine concepts like the Panchasheel at the cost of their own security. Strong Nations can talk peace, but not Nations that can barely protect their citizenry. India is like the cuckold dreaming of a virile Manhood.

    In Contrast , look at the Chinese. They wage war with India at every given moment; at every available opportunity. The Chinese fully understand Sun Tzu’s principal maxim on War: “The best way to win a war is by not fighting!”. Build your strategy and make your moves so cleverly that it is unthinkable for the enemy to even contemplate a war.
    They have India by it’s balls! The Indians cannot even protect their citizens, much less contain Pakistan.

    The author here exhibits a very poor understanding of war , the importance of building creative weapons and strategy to contain enemy threats. The only morality for a nation is her survival.

  29. Prashant Krishnamurthy Says:

    Arun Shourie’s is a career artfully built, like S.L. Bhyrappa’s, on exploiting the favourite fears and fantasies of the middle-class like corruption, conversions, reservations, pseudo-secularism, Isamic jihad, “Hindu culture in danger”, etc, hiding behind a veneer of seemingly serious but actually very dubious scholasticism.

    It is but natural that he should have made this progression to a bellicose blood-sucker so smoothly.

    In itself Shourie’s war and hate mongering should not surprise us because that is the chosen path of a Hindutva careerist using Swami Vivekananda’s shoulders for cover. What should surprise us is the scant intellectual scrutiny that his selective interpretation and deployment of the facts invites. In a more serious academic/ journalism atmosphere than India’s, he would have been toast.

    In his choice of words, in his choice of targets, “learned” Mr Shourie is every bit as dangerous as Narendra Modi, Praveen Togadia and their ilk, except that he stuffs his “articles” with convenient citations, carries files of documents to TV studios, and employs rhetoric his target audience well understands. But what use is such erudition if the end-objective is the same as streetside goons, thugs and vampires baying for blood?

    Of course, Shourie is entitled to his opinions but to pretend that he is a godsend to our intellectually barren political climes is a shame.

    http://www.sikhtimes.com/news_060100a.html

  30. Cool Dude Says:

    Guys, don’t fight here… All these Indian intellects whether of left or right or middle, discuss it all.. say lotta stuff. Ultimately India as a country will take a good step of do nothing. Thats the way we are. So, sleep peacefully. Nothing will happen, whether its right or wrong.. Be cool..

  31. Karihaida Says:

    Wow, most of the comments here are supporting this stupid article :)

    The “insurgents” are merecenaries and not really religious nuts. If you don’t pay them to attack someone else, someone else will pay them to attack you. The days of full scale wars are over.
    I’m actually disappointed that Arun Shourie has mentioned such covert operations in mainstream. You don’t see mainstream media in USA carrying news items against covert operations by the CIA, particularly after 9/11.
    We should be glad that RAW has finally started to give some ROI :) that too under kaangi rule. Pakistan is being squeezed in the vice and RAW is playing an active role in increasing the velocity of the squeeze.
    As they say strike the iron while its hot.
    When the islamo-nuts are done with Pak we will deal with them later, till then its time to enjoy the show.

  32. Rooney Says:

    Neither Sharanya Kanvilkar nor any of the Congress supporters here will ever dwell on what India should do to stop this daily bleeding by the jehadis.

    Having chosen to be quiet till Indians’ anger subsided, they attack viciously those who even raise the possibility of retaliation. Which is fine if they take responsibility for the next act of terror.

    The Intelligence guys were calling for ‘Asymmetric Warfare’, which is not different from what Arun Shourie said.

    SECOND FRONT IN WAR AGAINST GLOBAL TERRORISM
    B.RAMAN

    http://ramansterrorismanalysis.blogspot.com/2008/12/second-front-in-war-against-global.html

    INDIA & TERRORISM: MORE Qs & As
    B.RAMAN

    From 1968 till 1997, the R&AW too used to be like the MOSSAD. In 1997, as an unilateral gesture to Pakistan, Inder Gujral ordered that the R&AW’s Covert Action division should be wound up. Many senior officers represented to Gujral that if he wanted to show a gesture to Pakistan, he could suspend its covert operations for a while and see whether Pakistan reciprocates. If it did not, they could be resumed.

    Even American think-tank wanted action:

    What Pakistan Won’t Do, the World Should

    By Robert Kagan

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/01/AR2008120102438_pf.html

    And finally, for those who cannot participate in any discussion without bitching about the Sangh Parivar, here is something unpalatable:

    RSS, Bajrang Dal are not terrorist groups: Britain

    http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Nov192008/national20081119101596.asp?section=updatenews

  33. Palahalli Says:

    Kollar – I’m trying to understand where you’re coming from;

    You seem to be saying; “strengthen the “Right Hand” of Pakistan, else, the “Left Hand” will take over”.

    I leave to you to tell me who or where the “Right Hand” of Pakistan is.

    Let’s start with defining what this “Right Hand” is?

    The folly of American policy is that of indecisiveness. They really don’t seem to know what in fact, they want finally.

    Plainly put;

    Running with the hares and hunting with the hounds gives strength and vigor to both. That’s their problem.

    If “war” starts in the mind of man, then the thought of “defense” must too.

    So long as we are Mysore Peshva’s “Liberal Democracy” and not an assertive one in which we are clear about what we are defending and we are clear about how valuable it is to our civilization, we will continue to wallow in self-doubt.

    The great poison of Liberal-Secularism coupled with faddist Multi-Culturalism, has tied our hands and now threatens to cut them out.

    We are all very worried about the tumult in Pakistan, are we worried about the tumult brewing in our country? Do we really think Capt. Purohit was a loner in thought?

    One more thing; China’s strength is mentioned. I agree.

    Please remember that the Chinese are “Communist” only in name and that’s not just because of economics. That’s because they are Nationalists to the core. They are very clear about what they want to defend.

  34. Doddi Buddi Says:

    Mysore Peshva is right. For once, Alok I agree with you.

    ***

    This is to ‘Becalmed Krishna Idol’,

    You will never understand the anger felt by angry Indians about the duplicity of Pakistanis and their cheerleaders like your man Rohan Oberoi who penned this article in 2000 http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jan/09/opinion/op-52230 and yourself!!

    Any one who hasn’t got any blinkers of the Left kind can read and weep and guffaw at the same time about this article and our man who took the trouble of introducing this great writer Rohan Oberoi:)

    Singing praises about the Shaikh…wah wah wah ..n times!
    it is fashionable to be mindlessly intellectual about your favorite left-handed behavior but then it is equally difficult to be rational about the real India.

  35. prajwal Says:

    hmmm…interesting…indian forces are damned if they do something/anything against terror and damned if they don’t.

    and an open for all discussion about the intelligence agency which kind of specialises in dealing secret /covert info/operations which are on a understandable basis not released to the general public. and yet we judge it on basis of what HAS been released to a blabbermouth gossip mongering media.

    And somehow all the citizens here seem to think one can win a war/battle with absolutely no losses/collateral damage whatsoever!

    This can be metaphorically compared to a multiplayer strategy game with the aim of only one player emerging victorius under the condition that none of the involved parties loses a single piece in his side.

    Or even better, considering how a lot are concentrating on india and pakistan as the only players on the field, this is like a black and white chess game with the condition that one side should win with all its pawns and pieces….i think that is impossible.

    p.s. if someone has a solution to this chess problem please let me know, i would love to win against an interactive player in a game of chess without losing any of my pawns/pieces.

  36. Prasanna Says:

    Left-Liberal unintelligensia no doubt nurses a deep sense of antipathy to Arun Shourie for relentlessely exposing their dubious scholarship .He has brilliantly highlighted how the Left-Liberal unintelligensia rapaciously profits from running a patronage dispensation regime by tactfully expoiting their strangehold on vital societal instruments like academia, media etc. Even giving allowance for this deep-rooted animosity towards Shourie, this piece smacks of cheap potshots and at times character assasination

    Its shocking to see the author making allegations of financial improperity against a man of such unquestionable personal integrity in a cavalier fashion by quoting wiki links.If the author had managed to dig little deeper,he would have realised that the series of disinvestment deals done during Shouries’ era stands testimony to the brilliance of this man.They are text book examples of outstanding financial transparency and exemplary processes never before seen in the annals of governance . Congress Bureau of investigation ended up with egg on its face trying to implicate this illustious son of India .Ofcourse comical comrade Karat and their friendly media mouthpieces like Chennai Xinhua tried playing the dirty discredit campaign

    On Shourie’ revised aseesment of Dhirubhai-Is the author trying to suggest that an scholary individual does not have intellectual wherewithal to revise his earlier opinions?Its only in the holy books of semitic death cults that masquerade as religion and murderous ideologies like Marxism which elevate manifestly flawed individuals dogmas beyond reproach.

    Most hilarious part of the piece was the author quoting Guha the man whose only achievement (besides his phenomenal memory in recollecting some ridiculous trivia on Kriket) is that of elevating the Nehru veneration to abominable levels of sycophancy.Unless that Arundhati Roy who dabbles in unidimensional imaginary conspiracy theory in which any turbulence in the world is courtesy the handiwork of Corporate –RSS ,Shourie backs his undoubted scholarship with the truckload of evidence and quotes from original works.Sometimes he even overdoes that.

    As far he advocating tough line against Terrorisatan,he is highlighting the voice of million of unheard Indians. The most telling damage that Nauseating Nehruvians have wrought is in the form of ‘Panditji’ culture that pervades the Indian intelligentsia-the haughtiness that emanates from their spurious ‘moral’ superiority and superciliousness that camouflages their shallow pseudo-intellectualism. Brown sahibs sprouting Nehruvian non-sense usually from elitist, upper class families have been dominating all walks of cultural life in India and emasculated this country.

    India truly needsa Intellectual Kshatriya like Arun Shouries to get rid of them

  37. Doddi Buddi Says:

    Villageville,

    Nicely reasoned. I would rather have Barbarians at the Gates than the semi-Barbarians controlling the real Barbarians!

    ***

    Very Bright!

    That is easy! Just don’t play chess with Pakistan.

    Thinking along the same lines: I cannot understand why we cannot get hold of secret files from ISI bureaus? Can’t we bribe somebody and get their blueprints or whatever? Come on we can play that kind of espionage with them. Bollywood any ideas??

  38. Hiker Says:

    Doddi Buddi,
    “I cannot understand why we cannot get hold of secret files from ISI bureaus?”

    How do you know we don’t have that capability or we have not done that?!

  39. Palahalli Says:

    Doddi Buddi – I agree. Our Sec-Lib cultists will keep getting fooled till such time as the Semi-Barbs remain. Sometimes, some folks need the “real McCoy” to wake them up.

    But none can beat Prashant K in the art of “cake taking” :)

  40. prajwal Says:

    doddi buddi…

    not playin with neighbours can be done only by not interacting outside our own house limits. And to implement this we will cut all our foreign ties and seclude ourselves from the other countries completely.

    as a result the current “recession” will not affect us on any scale. Then the communists will praise u and me for saving india from the ravaging capitalist ideas ad the industrialists will damn us and bribe us to promote their particular industry. At the end of it all we will spend the remainder of our lives being filthy rich and yet shunned by a vast majority of society.

    hows that for a bollywood filmi saga?

    :D

  41. hkollar Says:

    Palahalli,

    I have no love for Pakistani’s. Nanobba ACHCHA Kannadiga and a staunch Indian. I know supporting Paki Govt. Or Army is supporting the policy of Running with hares…..

    However, I can never accept or support any action that will kill innocent people anywhere. Especially in our neighborhood, as the blow back will haunt us for a long long time.

    The angle I am coming from is simple. You don’t get anywhere by killing innocents, and a blunt weapon of arming and abetting militant groups (which is what Pakistan is doing) will result in what Pakistan is getting – A blow back!!

    Why would anyone wish that??

    We are better off focusing on internal security Machinary. There is so much we can do to improve our own Policing, Military, intelligence and anti-terror forces. We should focus on how we can improve our economy, instead of undermining someone elses.

    Pakistan, if it doesn’t change its ways, will be completely ruined. The only hope is if majority of Pakistani’s find their nerve and raise up against their rogue army, which is backing the terrorists. If they don’t do it, they’ll be consumed by it – without any help from outside.

    The only real solution to the problem of Pakistan is – Massive disarmament of Army and its citizenry. Pakistan has huge cache of weapons given away by Americans and the rogue army. Those need to be vaccumed if violence has to end. The coercive power has to be concentrated with the state.

    It can’t happen if outside agencies go and covertly supply arms & money to some of the citizens. It will only make things worse.

    My prediction – A UN force will move in to pakistan and disarm the civilians. May take a 5-10 years for that to happen, but that’s where it is headed.

    India can’t do it at all, because Pakistan is blinded by false-pride and some mad army men only needs a pretext to experiment with a toy in their arsenel. Then we all loose.

    While lot of people think we can call Pakistan’s bluff, it is too much of a risk. A risk not worth taking as of now, as there are other alternatives. But, if Taliban marches on Islamabad, and civilians govt. doesn’t accept an UN security team inside Pakistan, then an open war is inevitable.

  42. Tathagata Mukherjee Says:

    http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=20092\18\story_18-2-2009_pg3_3

    The advancing enemy —Dr Manzur Ejaz
    This Pakistani person is extremely rare, probably only one who speaks the truth, though he lives in USA.

    One interesting aspect of whole NWFP is: This is beyond the Sindhu river, and outside natural border of geographic India. In modern times, it was brought under control by Sikhs. Brits, who were invited into Punjab by elite there, incorporated this area. Pakistan got this after 1947.

    It was never under Punjab Rule. So, in a sense, Sikhs are responsible for this mess today :)-

    The only way, Pakistan can keep NWFP (and Baluchistan) is by Islamization. And enentually the blow-back will haunt them.\

    ***

    hmm…read posts of many fundoos here. I think a SERIOUS RECONSIDERATION of our strategic interest is needed. Some myths needs to be demolished before its too late.

    MYTHs that must be destroyed:

    1. That a stable Pakistan is India’s interest- its WRONG assumption to begin with.

    Stable Pakistan not in India’s interest

    http://sify.com/news/columns/fullstory.php?id=14754284

    2. We should NOT have liberated East Pakistan- that would have kept Pakistan busy, and they would have spent less time and energy in formenting jehad in Kashmir, elsewhere in India.

    3. Pay back by same coin- Pakis must be made to understand that there is a cost associated with formeting jehad in India. Water, electricity, Port- some targetted attacks by India will achieve that.

    4. Use all means including war- but don’t call it war. India should follow this doctrine of Chanakya.

    5. Myth that Jehadi terrorism is bleeding Pakistan- its not so. Mush is on record saying, because of Kargil, India came to discussion table.

    6. Myth that there is a moderate, statist, secular Pakistani elite with whom we can deal with – there is none.

    7. Deploy force in Eastern border, so Pakistan is forced to leave western border to Taliban, thus forcing US force to Pakistan.

  43. clash Says:

    @ prasanna… whatever it is.. the last casteist statement of yours – India truly needsa Intellectual Kshatriya like Arun Shouries to get rid of them is good enough to dismiss your didactic dissertation about a looney journo “Kshatriya” son

  44. Palahalli Says:

    Kollar – You have come up with a lot of options and scenarios that I think, must be responded to fully. I’ll do so point-wise.

    *******
    I have no love for Pakistani’s. Nanobba ACHCHA Kannadiga and a staunch Indian. I know supporting Paki Govt. Or Army is supporting the policy of Running with hares…..
    ** No. The “hares” are always harmless. It’s the “runner – nee Hunter” that fools himself :)
    But in the Pakistani scenario, I do not believe that there are any “hares” at all for us to save. These are “wolves” divided for now. For you to argue otherwise, you would have to show some “hare-like” qualities in this lot.
    *******

    However, I can never accept or support any action that will kill innocent people anywhere. Especially in our neighborhood, as the blow back will haunt us for a long long time.
    ** I assume you are as staunch about “innocents” getting killed on our side?

    But that’s an insult to you’re sense of fairness.

    Nevertheless, our country has exhausted all its “other-worldly” techniques to dissuade Pakistan. These varied schemes have failed us time and again and worse, have encouraged this rabid enemy. It has encouraged other neighbors to follow suite as well.

    So, the “blow-back” you speak of is as old as the trees as far as we are concerned. May I ask if we have any responsibility toward our own people? How do we account for “our” killed?
    *******

    The angle I am coming from is simple. You don’t get anywhere by killing innocents, and a blunt weapon of arming and abetting militant groups (which is what Pakistan is doing) will result in what Pakistan is getting – A blow back!!
    ** I think you’ve got you’re physics wrong here.
    Pakistan has used “it’s” Jihadis to spread terror in our country and our docile attitude has encouraged “our” Jihadis to help Pakistan.

    You’re opponents in this debate, and I, argue that we use “their” Jihadis against them. Truly speaking, no Jihadi worth his salt will work with India against Pakistan. So, theoretically speaking, we will not be aiding Jihadis at all.

    The only blow-back will be in Pakistan and additionally, this action will discourage our home-grown Jihadis too. And yes, less of our people die.
    ********

    We are better off focusing on internal security Machinary. There is so much we can do to improve our own Policing, Military, intelligence and anti-terror forces. We should focus on how we can improve our economy, instead of undermining someone elses.
    ** Wars are fought on many fronts. Our vastness of heart and land has encouraged us to think we are not at war. If we do not address root-cause, no amount of the above measures will suffice.
    ********

    Pakistan, if it doesn’t change its ways, will be completely ruined. The only hope is if majority of Pakistani’s find their nerve and raise up against their rogue army, which is backing the terrorists. If they don’t do it, they’ll be consumed by it – without any help from outside.
    ** Shall I pray that the killer commits suicide rather than kill me? Nice thought, but too cool for my taste and sense of reality.
    ********

    The only real solution to the problem of Pakistan is – Massive disarmament of Army and its citizenry. Pakistan has huge cache of weapons given away by Americans and the rogue army. Those need to be vaccumed if violence has to end. The coercive power has to be concentrated with the state.
    ** Hmm, now the “State of Pakistan” is different from its own Army? And you propose we take from the Army and Jihadis and give to State?
    ********

    It can’t happen if outside agencies go and covertly supply arms & money to some of the citizens. It will only make things worse.
    ** Yes. Worse for the Jihadis and the Pakistani State that sponsors them. That’s not so bad. Especially not when this will kill less of our people.
    ********

    My prediction – A UN force will move in to pakistan and disarm the civilians. May take a 5-10 years for that to happen, but that’s where it is headed.
    ** I see. I did not know that the Jihadi and the Pakistani State is amenable to the UN’s “pressure” such as it is, any more than India’s. But we must wait for 5-10 years and see more of our own killed. Fair price?
    ********

    India can’t do it at all, because Pakistan is blinded by false-pride and some mad army men only needs a pretext to experiment with a toy in their arsenel. Then we all loose.
    ** And the “toy” will be disbanded because the “UN says/requests/demands/begs/pleads/arm twists so”? Oh btw, AQ Khan, that doyen of egalitarianism is out free. The Non-State Pakistani State guarantees his safety of limb and life.
    ********

    While lot of people think we can call Pakistan’s bluff, it is too much of a risk. A risk not worth taking as of now, as there are other alternatives. But, if Taliban marches on Islamabad, and civilians govt. doesn’t accept an UN security team inside Pakistan, then an open war is inevitable.
    ** Open war you say?? Did I hear you right? Open war as in probable millions killed? Across both countries?? And THIS is acceptable to the “ACHCHA Kannadiga and a staunch Indian”…as against a few thousand killed in covert ops that has a better chance of success?

    Sarcasm was inevitable and irresistible, but I hope you see my point.
    _____________________

    Clash – Surely you are happier with “Intellectual Warrier”?

  45. clash Says:

    Looking up the wiki entry for warrier, about which i never knew much about revealed this :Part of a series on Hinduism! Enough and more to stay away from this.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variar

    Yes, the series on Hinduism in wiki should list out “sons” of their castes who did credible things for our nation.

    The kshatriya son…. the baniya son…. and dalit son (Oh.. wait.. does he qualify as a son??)

    We just cant sort out internal contradictions with so many sons preaching a whole lot of stuff that we gobble down with a prefix of their caste with it. And here we are a devising international plans to bust up… another enemy.. with so many contradcitions within ourselves, how many sons will walk hand in hand to achieve this? ( Aint hand in hand with a Dalit a problem?)

    And where do we practice this belligerence that we need to have against our enemy? We do it on our brethren as it happened in Khairlanji and as it happens every other 18 mins in India.

  46. Palahalli Says:

    Clash – Cannot understand what you want to say.

    “Variar”, per you’re wiki entry is a Brahmin caste of Kerala.

    I spoke of Kshatriya as in “warrier”.

    And what does this mean?

    “Part of a series on Hinduism! Enough and more to stay away from this.”

  47. larissa Says:

    Arun Shourie is speaking correctly.
    The current government is always thinking “How might we please Pakistan”. You have all the terrorism coming into Kashmir from Muzaffarabad but instead of sealing the border you have Congress trading with Pakistan and developing trade across the border. You know many people around the world make fun of Hindus as being the wimpiest people–the way they deal with Pakistan proves them correct. If Hindus had not been wimpy, India would not have been under slavery for 1000 years. Seal the border with Pakistan, stop all trade with that Nation, let the Muslim terrorists it supported to gain an upper hand in Indian Kashmir lead to its own demise–Muslims are treacherous. Now the situaiton in Kashmir is a bit quiet and I heard from one elderly Kashmiri Pandit landy (bless her soul who still lives there) that Muslims are visiting her and saying that they even had Kashmiri Pandit ancestors! Before her Muslim neighbors would constantly taunt her :When are you leaving, just as they forced 400, 000 people to leave their homes–mind you they have been living there before Islam even came into existence. Now with less support from Pakistan, the Muslims have quietened down there I have heard. All people who fly Pakistani flags in India are terrorists and traitors–they should be shipped across the border.
    It is a fact now recognized by all around the world that Pakistan is a threat to world civilization—
    If Hindus were not wimps, they would take very stern action against Pakistan and stop the flooding of illegal Muslims from Bangladesh who are displacing tribal people in places like Assam. But Hindus are now governed by an Italian nanny with a high school education, so that won’t happen–

  48. hemant adhikari Says:

    In my openion war is not a good tool ,as past is a example whenever there war happened noone remain safe whether prey or predator.
    now techonology has becomme so advanced that its now machine war,which is totally distructive.

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