E.R. RAMACHANDRAN writes: This picture, of school boys and girls, was not shot at some traditional gurukul in some god forsaken part of Karnataka in the middle of the 20th century.
It was shot at a government-run school in Bidadi, barely an hour from the IT capital of India, Bangalore, in the ninth year of the twenty-first.
Construction of the building for the school and two others was taken up during H.D. Kumaraswamy‘s reign as chief minister, but has since been discontinued for “lack of funds”.
Looking at the picture, you should wonder:
1. Why is our chief minister B.S. Yediyurappa donating crores of rupees (Rs 130 crore to be precise) to temples and mutts for prayers to be conducted for the wellbeing of the people of Karnataka, and to remove the ill-effects of the ‘poor administration’ of previous governments, when children are sitting on bare, hard soil under a scorching sun for lack of funds to build a roof on their head?
2. Why do we waste lakhs of rupees bringing in Gangajal when we cannot supply Cauvery water even to people in Mysore, located 18 km from the Cauvery, on a regular basis for drinking purposes? 50,000 gallons of Gangajal was brought to the State at a cost of Rs 2.5 lakh. What moksha will people get by having the prokshane of Gangajal on them when they cannot get water to quench their thirst or when their children have to sit under the scorching sun in a school because of a “regime-change”?
3. When there are power cuts all through the day and night, all across the State, and children and students have a horrid time preparing for their tests and exams, how does it help to light up lakhs of bulbs by illuminating the Mysore Palace for tourists on one extra day of the week, Saturday, on top of spending obscene millions on prayers and Gangajal? Have the district in-charge minister Shobha Karandlaje, and the district administration lost all sense of proportion?
4. Why is our government arranging ‘lectures’ on terrorism by forcing principals to send students and spending money on these futile exercises, especially in exam season? It is the police who have to take on the terrorists and need equipment, training, skills to combat the sophisticated, technology-savvy terrorists. Our Police are poorly paid, with only a lathi and a whistle as their ‘equipment’ most times. Their living quarters are an insult to them and their families. They are pawns in a never-ending political tug-of-war. They don’t even have proper bulletproof jackets thanks to corruption. Instead of strengthening our police force, instead improving the morale why are we totally ‘out of focus’ by dragging students in to this. Perhaps educating them is a good idea, but it should come much later when we have done the primary job of strengthening the police in all respects.
Why is the BJP government totally ‘out of focus’ on so many issues?
Why doesn’t it tackle urgent issues on a priority basis rather than in a medieval fashion?
Why does it spend millions to issue advertisements to crow about the great feats achieved by it?
The BJP came to power on a wave of sympathy over what the JDS had done to it. It came to power riding the high hopes of a people disenchanted with the Congress and JDS. But it is gradually losing all that by tackling irrelevant things and functioning in an outmoded style.
Why is Yediyurappa/ Yeddyurappa fiddling when namma cheluva naadu is, well, burning with issues, crying for attention?
Also read: Yella not OK, guru. Nanna makkalu is not learning
Don’t gift them fish. Teach them how to fish
Can Azim Premji do that the government can’t/ won’t?
Tags: B.S. Yediyurappa, Bidadi, BJP, Churumuri, Congress, H.D. Kumaraswamy, JDS, Mysore Palace, P. Manivannan, Sans Serif, Shobha Karandlaje
28 February 2009 at 8:42 pm
we want ganga jal and not stinking kaveri river water.
we want laadoos and not rice or ragi muddhe.
Down to churmuri.
28 February 2009 at 8:47 pm
Even though I hate commenting on politics, since I myself am not contributing to it, this is by far Karnataka’s worst government ever, filled with extreme filth, stupidity, narrow-mindedness and absolutely no vision for progress.
28 February 2009 at 9:10 pm
BJP is no lesser than Congress. It will be defeated if this continues.
28 February 2009 at 9:22 pm
1. Why is our chief minister B.S. Yediyurappa donating crores of rupees (Rs 130 crore to be precise) to temples and mutts for prayers to be conducted for the wellbeing of the people of Karnataka, and to remove the ill-effects of the ‘poor administration’ of previous governments, when children are sitting on bare, hard soil under a scorching sun for lack of funds to build a roof on their head?
Ans : Well, BSY government is not responsible for this, it was congress and JD who have ruled this state for over 98% of time post independense.
It takes sometime to deliver all this, Government is in power only for last 9 months.. You can’t expect a baby to run marathon
2. Why do we waste lakhs of rupees bringing in Gangajal when we cannot supply Cauvery water even to people in Mysore, located 18 km from the Cauvery, on a regular basis for drinking purposes? 50,000 gallons of Gangajal was brought to the State at a cost of Rs 2.5 lakh. What moksha will people get by having the prokshane of Gangajal on them when they cannot get water to quench their thirst or when their children have to sit under the scorching sun in a school because of a “regime-change”?
Ans : For your information, this 2.5 Lakhs was the cost taken care by minister from his personal funds, do refer news papers or seek clarification from minister on this.
3. When there are power cuts all through the day and night, all across the State, and children and students have a horrid time preparing for their tests and exams, how does it help to light up lakhs of bulbs by illuminating the Mysore Palace for tourists on one extra day of the week, Saturday, on top of spending obscene millions on prayers and Gangajal? Have the district in-charge minister Shobha Karandlaje, and the district administration lost all sense of proportion?
Ans : Mysore palace is pride of Karnataka, it needs to be showcased rightly for the tourists. If powercuts are applicable to the city same shall be enforced on mysore palace too..
4. Why is our government arranging ‘lectures’ on terrorism by forcing principals to send students and spending money on these futile exercises, especially in exam season? It is the police who have to take on the terrorists and need equipment, training, skills to combat the sophisticated, technology-savvy terrorists. Our Police are poorly paid, with only a lathi and a whistle as their ‘equipment’ most times. Their living quarters are an insult to them and their families. They are pawns in a never-ending political tug-of-war. They don’t even have proper bulletproof jackets thanks to corruption. Instead of strengthening our police force, instead improving the morale why are we totally ‘out of focus’ by dragging students in to this. Perhaps educating them is a good idea, but it should come much later when we have done the primary job of strengthening the police in all respects.
Ans : Well, terrorism has gone even into students, take batla house encounter, all of them were students of jamia university.. Unless you take strong action at root level, you can’t resolve issues around it. Not just in collages, a similar program must be organised even at residential colonies.
28 February 2009 at 10:22 pm
Yes, several priorities are misplaced. I won’t say that Yeddi is not doing any good – he is doing a few good things, but those are obscured by these idiotic activities.
But you know what the best part is? You can expect a barrage of comments by our regular brilliant friends on these lines: “churumuri’s pseudo secular posturing has begun”, “Why does the pseudo secular media not highlight anything the congress does”, “see the Hindu bashing – they are against anything Hindu”.
For all their talk about ‘branding people’, these great fellows immediately start jumping up and down with the word: “pseudo” on their lips the moment anyone so much as says a word against the BJP. These people talk of ‘pro congress bias’ but obtain all their ammunition through the media.
Now, the situation is becoming something like: you dare not question any idiocy that a Hindu does, you are a “pseudo” if you dare to do so. In their zeal to get back at the minority appeasement policies, these people are trying to complete with the mullahs and outdo them in idiocy and trying to get people back into the dark ages.
28 February 2009 at 10:32 pm
Agree on the first 3 but, the lecture on terrorism is important until it is made a part of the syllabus.
28 February 2009 at 11:10 pm
When there is a huge economic downturn, massive number of people are loosing job, growing is now below 5%, 10% plus deficit… alas- ERR has chosen same old predictable bashing of BJP for spacious reasons instead of highlighting those!
Karnataka state, which in many ways denote hightech industry, strategic institutions, installations are target of Jehadis for a long time to undermine its economy. No wonder, all fabicrated identity cards found on terrorists killed during Mumbai 11/26 attack, were from education institutions of Karnataka!
And a mass movement against terrorism involving students is termed as ‘unnecessary’? Its MOST IMPORTANT thing before students, because if few more terrorist acts take place in Bangalore/Mysore, all industries will leave the place, thus students will not get any job.
In this mental makeup, Gangajal when brought NOT BY GOVT MONEY (Temple minister’s friends sponsored that) is bad, but when 10 liters of free ZamZam water per Haaj Passenger by AIR INDIA is fine.
By the way, why in a ‘secular’ state, Govt Controls Hindu temples, but not Mosques/Churches?
28 February 2009 at 11:11 pm
Shame on us that we expect any better from our elected swines ! When you elect swines , cutting across party lines, you get these useless pork projects – it’s a given ERR.
Mr.Y, errr Dr.Y, is doing his best — falling at the feet of godmen like he has lost his spine. Don’t fault him, he is trying. Be an optimist ; if his prayers are answered, you will have Cauveri water 24×7 in Gulbarga ; Children sitting on cushioned chairs ; Karandlaje as the D-CM; Women wearing only 9-gaja sarees ; Jeans and alcohol banned for women ; mass marriages on Valentine’s day. Not to forget, ‘World Peace’ !
The opportunities are Yendless ; go Yeddy go…
28 February 2009 at 11:35 pm
Simple! Because Yeddi and Co. and for similar acts MMS and co or Sonia and co believe such acts fetch votes.
True development needs vision and true concern which today’s politicians lack. As far as I can remember, the only politician in the last 25 years who did something good at the grassroots level was Nazeer “neer” Saab with his borewells and Atal Vajpayee with his highway programme (which was unfortunately never taken to its logical conclusion by UPA). The rest of the progress for all that anybody can claim credit for was either (i) inspite of the government/politicians (ii) inevitable or (iii) just plain bullshitting.
28 February 2009 at 11:51 pm
Why spend millions on Haj and be stingy on paying to brave army whi is defending the frontier??
Churmuri stop attacking Hindu religion……… now u band me a BJS.RSS guy nope I am not I am just an observer:)
1 March 2009 at 2:04 am
Given the BJP’s run so far, I get a feeling that collectively they have no idea what the hell they are doing as the Government (as opposed to being in the Opposition). More importantly, I don’t think they have a clue what they should be doing as a Government.
Previous JDS & Cong govt. probably knew what they had to do, knew what they were doing instead of what they were supposed to do, and accordingly paid the price.
I think this BJP govt. is plain clueless.
However, I will still give them a bit of a benefit of doubt. I think they will sort of figure out what should be done soon, and maybe, just maybe, go about doing it.
I fear though, that they probably wont.
1 March 2009 at 9:54 am
Churumuri officially kicks off its 2009 election campaign !!
1 March 2009 at 10:50 am
This blog post’s anger is misplaced and misdirected.
School’s are not built overnight.
So why blame Yeddi and Co who are in the seats barely for past few months?
On a closer look at the picture, I see buildings in the background. Is it possible that to escape from summer heat teachers are conducting classes outside? I attended a government school and it was common during summer months to have classes outside below the trees.
1 March 2009 at 11:33 am
There, look at the bokachoda jumping up and down on ‘the same predictable lines’.
such people need medical help.
1 March 2009 at 11:36 am
Yes, the government must do its duty. Improve infrastructure, provide facilities-excellent faciities. Agreed. Good education. When the educated speak so much of the rights they forget their duties. What is the rold of local public in providing assistance to schools? How many of them who have studied in the same educational institution have visited the school? Have they ever of thought of enquiring about the needs? Some of them may be sendoing their children to the same school. Take a photo. Give a good/attractive caption. Publish it. And then never worry about them. The service to society by the educated is just by criticising and never participate in the development of it.
1 March 2009 at 11:45 am
mujraai ilaakhege baro duddannu baree devasthanagala abhivruddhige upayogisabeku.not for other ‘secular’ causes as christist Govt in Andhra is doing.. With that in mind I fuly support what Yeddi is doing. Are there any weblinks were I could find out how much money is accruing to the Mujraai ilaakhe?
1 March 2009 at 11:57 am
Yedi – karnataka’s laloo,
1 March 2009 at 6:55 pm
Recently I watched a movie called “Gladiator” on tv. It is based on the old Roman empire. The Emperor is murdered by his unworthy son. Then the son who is sworn as Emperor tries his utmost to fool the citizens of Rome by starting a live game show of Gladiators and death. Even the Roman Senate is helpless and watches in despair, as the focal point of good governance, and lack of basic amenities is overshadowed by the games.
I think Yeddy is surely learning the tricks of the game. But are we the citizens smart enough to see through the facade.
1 March 2009 at 9:03 pm
Whoever put that photo of the school children, I’m sure has never heard nor does he care about the School Nurturing program, whose advertisements were out as recent as two days ago.
Please read http://www.schooleducation.kar.nic.in/schoolnurturing.htm before blabbering about priorities.
1 March 2009 at 9:08 pm
Refer third para…HDK period the school building was started…remember the son of the soil was the chief minister and the primeminister of India. What the hell they were doing all these years then. Blame the situation and don’t try to attribute to any single individual. Bidadi people what are they doing? They are also commenting like churumuri…..
1 March 2009 at 9:41 pm
Vinay, Tathagata’s point is made by bamboo basappa too. Why don’t you address it instead of using the standard abuse?
The Gangajal appears in the article so these commenters’ point is within context.
1 March 2009 at 10:50 pm
>>we want ganga jal and not stinking kaveri river water
Rs 2.5 Lakh Private fund is used to bring Ganga-jal. It got more coverage than it due. I suspect there is a bigger plan behind this. Rememer who is sent to Karnataka by Cong High Command? Ghulam Nabi Azad.
His role of surrendering land on Sree Amarnath is about to be raised , and what better place to do that in Karnataka where we have large section of people for whom Shiva is Ista-Devata.
>>In their zeal to get back at the minority appeasement policies, these people are trying to complete with the mullahs and outdo them in idiocy and trying to get people back into the dark ages.
All these comments for spending Rs 2.5 lakh private fund?
1 March 2009 at 11:23 pm
Check the site http://www.schooleducation.kar.nic.in/SchoolSearch/SchSearch.asp
Bidadi Village if you do not know– is in Ramanagara District, Ramanagara Taluk and you can see that there are 15 schools. Most of them are private, But if you go through the detail of the public schools you do not see any shortage of rooms in good condition.
ERR can you please educate us how you got this info?
For those who want to help/ or get the real status here are the details of whom to contact
Block Education Officer -8113-7273708 /9448999440
DDPI 080-7271352 / 9480695323 eMail ID: ddpi.rmgm@gmail.com
2 March 2009 at 12:07 am
http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/where-it-goes/00/19/350424/ Enough said. Yes MM Singh is warming the chair for Rahul Baba. Also the Sugar Thief refused to remove Navin “Bio Break Phone Uplink” Chawla. A smooth transfer of a warm chair for Rahul Baba is being setup.
2 March 2009 at 1:17 am
Great posts from ‘Maadi’ Nanjangud, Sathya, TM, Narayana, Friendsville and others.
ERR,
You made some valid points but your ‘Nehruvian’ attempts at ridiculing Hindu-related practices are unfunny! Come on now recant your comments on Gangajal and the school photo. It is only fair. Thanks.
2 March 2009 at 5:56 am
Narayana, TOI published the same article. Maybe saturday.
2 March 2009 at 8:13 am
Why cannot H.Doublecrossing.Kumaraswamy spend a couple lakhs out of his Rs.39.5 crores assets and complete the school?
Commentators in this blog find it easy to agree when it is necessary to disagree. It is easier to nod the head than shake it. No wonder, so many commentators have sheepishly agreed with Churumuri commentator.
It is not as if by granting Rs. 130 crores to religious institutions, the government has spent less on education, or has reduced the expenditure on education. That is not your case or allegation.
By getting laddoos and Gangajal, and granting Rs.130 crores to Hindu religious institutions, the government has not done any favours to anyone. After all, hundreds of crores of rupees are collected by the Government every year from all the temples through Mujarai department? What is wrong, if some of this money is given back to the religious institutions? For decades together, the secular governments have swallowed money from Hindu religious institutions for its own purposes. It is time that some of it is spent back on Hindu religious institutions.
2 March 2009 at 9:54 am
“Roof collapses,student injured”this is one of the head line in a kannada news paper few days back.I think shadow of tree is safer than roof of govt schools.
2 March 2009 at 1:32 pm
ಡಾ.ಬೂಸಿಯ( ಡಾಕ್ಟರ್.ಬೂಕನಕೆರೆ ಸಿದ್ದಲಿ೦ಗಪ್ಪ ಯಡಿಯೂರಪ್ಪ) ರವರು ಇನ್ನಾದರು ಬರೀ ಹೇಳಿಕೆಗಳಲ್ಲಿ ಪ್ರಗತಿ ಸಾಧಿಸಿತೊರಿಸುವುದು ಬಿಟ್ಟು, ನಿಜವಾಗಿ ಕೆಲಸ ನಡೆದು ಸಾರ್ವಜನಿಕರಿಗೆ ಒಳ್ಳೆಯದಾಗುವ೦ತಾಗಲಿ.
2 March 2009 at 11:00 pm
Palahalli:
What did you maniacs find soooo offensive about the ‘Gangajal remarks’? Having the prokshane of Gangajal on them will not help them get water to quench their thirst. Are you suggesting by any chance that public money is better spent on Gangajal and other sundry attempts to appease the gods, than on stuff that will actually help people live a better life?
You guys will very predictably begin to jump up and down the moment the BJP is criticized – you wish to sanctify the BJP and make it some kind of Holy Cow, immune to all criticism. Long and fat middle finger to you!! I was a BJP supporter myself once upon a time, but as of today, they suck.
And on top of all this we have in our midst the champion spammer, renowned throughout Indian internet forums. And he, unfortunately, does not realize, that my comments on outdoing Mullahs are a cumulative result of weeks of reading his comments and ‘views’, and not inspired by this article alone.
And another trademark comment that escaped my attention >> “By the way, why in a ’secular’ state, Govt Controls Hindu temples, but not Mosques/Churches?”
Goes to show that the thinking is on the lines of, ‘Government should control all places of worship’. Again the “so-typical angry middle-class middle-aged Indian” view. Does not know what secularism means. I will not tire of repeating this thousands of times so that I can knock some sense into at least a few people who are willing to listen. Secularism DOES NOT MEAN EQUAL IMPORTANCE TO ALL RELIGIONS. It means, NO IMPORTANCE TO ANY RELIGION. The Government ought to bloody well keep its meddling hands off temples, mosques, churches, devil-worship centers.. whatever.
3 March 2009 at 12:06 am
Vinay
“Secularism DOES NOT MEAN EQUAL IMPORTANCE TO ALL RELIGIONS. It means, NO IMPORTANCE TO ANY RELIGION. The Government ought to bloody well keep its meddling hands off temples, mosques, churches, devil-worship centers.. whatever.”
True. But that renowned spammer’s questions still stands and begs for an answer. Why is the govt meddling only in the affairs of hindu temples. If anything, he is saying
a. Meddle in all religions
b. Don’t meddle in any
3 March 2009 at 6:01 am
vinay no importance to any religion is a western idea. the problem with that is not that westerners came about this idea. the problem is that the idea is not universal. it was an idea in response to unique circumstances within andina airope. it makes no sense to india of any time. tolerance is another such notion. tolerance afaik really implies, actually i am the boss but i will let you live – i tolerate you, like i tolerate that pesky mosquito.
it makes no sense in india. the reason bjp’s slogan of pseudo secularism finds any resonance at all in india, is that a good chunk of indians cant make head or tails out of this secularism business. a good chunk of indians haven’t even fully grasped the notion of religion. they think of people of not their ‘type’ as different castes. they will not give their dotters in marriage, and will keep them off their social circles, but they are not vested in changing their ways and means. they are not interested in ‘rescuing’ them. they harbour no grand illusions as to who plays rescuer & who plays rescuee. If the road side maryamma is propitious than downtown venkatesh, then road side maryamma is who gets the business.
good chunk of people here might be middle aged middle class and not understand your non-middle class non-middle aged approach. it is for you to explain why secularism and tolerance are applicable to us, and why they are a great idea.
i think you are carrying pedhas to dharwad. i may be wrong.
3 March 2009 at 7:03 am
Vinay – No use doing what you accuse you’re opponents of doing. Don’t jump up and down.
These are the points made -
1. The monies going to Temples and Mathas are actually a portion of the monies going “back” to these religious centers. In fact, a fraction of the total collection.
2. The Gangajal is paid for by the minister. It’s not public money.
3. Tatagatha too wants Govt control ‘off” Temples and Hindu religious institutions. There is no dispute.
Please remember; the more ridiculous you’re objections…well, we will have to come down to you’re level then.
Now, does the BJP suck because of the above?
3 March 2009 at 2:08 pm
“i think you are carrying pedhas to dharwad.” – TS, super!
3 March 2009 at 5:12 pm
tarlesubba:
“it is for you to explain why secularism and tolerance are applicable to us”
The reason I do not make attempts to type huuuuge detailed posts defending and explaining my points of view is simply because, in 9 cases out of 10, it is of absolutely no use. All of us come to this place just for some timepass and leisure. Of course, occasionally we get too involved and personal, and I am as guilty of doing so as anyone else. My views are not going to change anything.
Anyhow, let me answer your question: “why secularism and tolerance are applicable to us”
I can ask you a similar counter question, but instead of answering a question with another, let me just say this: we have a sizeable population of Muslims, Christians, and several others. We made this choice in 1947 and now you have to live with it whether you like it or not. Having said that, rest assured, any efforts by the Government to meddle in religious affairs will not satisfy anyone, no matter how unbiased any such efforts are.
In the current scenario, with the religious subsidies, ‘appeasement policies’ and so on, most Muslims on the street will claim that they are discriminated against by the Indian state. Hindus claim that they are the ones who are discriminated against because of the sops and benefits extended to Muslims.
No matter how unbiased or even-handed you try to be, both sides will accuse you of favoring the other. For example, most of you claim that the media is biased against Hindu groups, and you vehemently argue that they fail to highlight anything that Muslim fundamentalists do. After the bomb blasts, we had an e-mail from the ‘Indian Mujahideen’ claiming that the media is biased against Muslims and how it favours Hindu fundamentalists (was published on churumuri some months back).
My point is this: if the Indian state attempts to go along this path of injecting funds into religion, we will only see further mud slinging (and bomb slinging). The Indian state needs to step back carefully, one step at a time, from any religious association. You can never satisfy people, and you will always be perceived as biased to the ‘other party’.
This is why we need the state to keep off religion. This is why secularism, as the West has defined it, is ‘applicable to us’.
By the way, what path do you propose?
3 March 2009 at 5:27 pm
Dear Mr.Palahalli,
where it is said that the money / expenses fro gangajal is by minister.it is govt.money only.check your facts please
3 March 2009 at 5:30 pm
ಡಾ. ಬೂಸಿಯ ಅಧಿಕಾರಕ್ಕೆ ಬ೦ದ ತಕ಼ಣ ಮಾಡಿದ ಕೆಲಸವೇನು ಗೊತ್ತೆ ? ವೀಡಿಯೊ ನೋಡಿ.
3 March 2009 at 9:37 pm
Vinay
You are superb.
4 March 2009 at 2:15 am
Vinay
‘Of course, occasionally we get too involved and personal, and I am as guilty of doing so as anyone else. ‘
Nim timepass swalpa jaasthine aagidhe :) Maybe churumuri has become main thing and other things have become timepass? Software laboralli involve aagirbeku…
TS,
Your family were/are priests in the temple at some time? Just asking out of curiosity.
P’halli,
Had too much gangajal before making the abusive big posts?
4 March 2009 at 7:57 am
vinay,
your approach of secularism is wrong. you are getting lost in the mechanics and forgetting what secularism the fundamental idea behind secularism.
your approach to secularism borders on escapism. you are saying because there is a threat of affected parties revolting govt should lay off.
imagine, where would we be without the govt intervening wrt untouchablity, reservations, suttee, dowry. are you saying that because a bunch of hindus might revolt against untouchability, the govt should lay off legislating on untouchability? (btw, this happened recently in tn when a group of OBCs kicked out SCs for drawing from some well, erected a wall and threw a fit. The district collectorate rightly would have none of their whims, broke the wall down, re-instated the actual victims and finally the oppressors had to give in after much needless loss of face. but note in greater india, all these injunctions have been accepted matter of factly.)
contrast this with what happened wrt to shahbano and you know what exactly is pseudo-secularism.
the modern man is repulsed by the idea of dictating terms to women. a genuine modern man will make equal noise against injunctions on jeans and on burqa. secular man bats for indian women’s rights. not just upperclass women. how can a modern indian justify subjecting 75 million indians to the whims of medieval arabs? why should only hindus be privileged with the intervention of modern indians? why not muslims? are they second grade citizens of india?
the basic idea behind secularism is that people yield to a covenant of contemporaries. in the quazi heterogeneous europe of 18th century this meant no preference to any religion. in truly heterogeneous india of all times it means something else all-together.
the rules of the secular covenant are based on current rationality, are transparently designed by people who are accountable and are always mutable and by definition temporal. they claim no permanence. in contrast there are a good number of people who are batting for rules designed in obscurity, by people who by their own self proclaimed design are beyond all scrutiny and by self assertion immutable. do you see the discrepancy? at anytime any group can seek remediation in the secular covenant, and if they have their kungfu square, effect a change. the only difference is what their kungfu is. for the longest time a good number of indians were invested in stuff like dharnas and voting. while others were blazing a trail in the medieval art of violence on a whim. are you going to make my co-religionist pay alimony? i will burn down your town. it, obviously, would not be long before others learnt the lesson that he who beats the drum sets the rhythm. so now you have everybody and their uncle beating the drum.
more later.
4 March 2009 at 12:17 pm
TS,
A sort of ‘SecularGeetha’…Nice detailed posts full of insights into our Secular ethos. Are there any teachers of civics or political science in this forum? If you guys/gals exist please encourage your students to follow the debate here!
4 March 2009 at 2:36 pm
bomma:
“Software laboralli involve aagirbeku”
Haudappa, naavu ella involve aagirlebeku. Else, how will the likes you get to piss on forums like these? You’d have to satisfy yourself with ‘Deccan Herald’ ‘Letter to the editor’.
4 March 2009 at 8:27 pm
tarlesubba – Couple issues.
Per my reading of “European Secularism” (ES), it arose as reaction against the increasing involvement of the “Sacral” in the “Temporal”. Simply put, the Pope meddled a bit too much, so the Monarchs got rid of his influence over their politics.
In my opinion, ES did not arise out of regard for any “quazi heterogeneous europe”. (For instance, where?)
Wrt. India, my position has always been that Secularism is misplaced and harmful to Hindus. No Hindu reformer has been “Secular”, so to speak. You cannot even see Ambedkar speaking this “Secular” buzz word. Our Constitution did not even recognize this word in its preamble until Indira Gandhi smuggled it in during emergency. (42nd Amendment (?))
Also, a Secular “reformer” has invariably been anti-Hindu. There is a logical connexion here.
“the modern man is repulsed by the idea of dictating terms to women.”
- In my opinion, this is again very mechanical. What does “dictating” mean? Does it require for a person to be a Hindu to dictate and for him to be Secular not to? This is just an example to illustrate.
I would much rather focus on how the Liberal (Secular, if you please) man has placed the Woman in serious danger due to indifference that takes cover under support for “Woman’s Lib”.
What do you think?
4 March 2009 at 9:04 pm
Tarlesubba:
“are you saying that because a bunch of hindus might revolt against untouchability, the govt should lay off legislating on untouchability”
This is precisely the point I am making. If a certain ‘leader’ who calls himself ‘Hindu’ begins screaming that untouchability is a part of Hindu culture, the state should give him a kick on the arse. The state should have one uniform code to govern society, and religious whims be damned, is what I am saying.
“a genuine modern man will make equal noise against injunctions on jeans and on burqa.”
Yes, and the state must indeed make a huge noise if there are injunctions on Burkha. And remember, we are discussing how a truly secular state needs to behave, and not how a flawed secular state like India of today behaves. (a side note: But also remember, several Muslim women wear Burkha because they believe that they are duty bound to, as much as their menfolk do. They want to be that way. In fact, I say that most Muslim women themselves would not want to step out without a Burkha. Visit any Muslim internet forum and see for yourself.)
“contrast this with what happened wrt to shahbano and you know what exactly is pseudo-secularism.”
Which is why we need a truly secular state that has uniform laws applicable to its entire populace. One that does not care about religion while framing and implementing laws.
“n contrast there are a good number of people who are batting for rules designed in obscurity, by people who by their own self proclaimed design are beyond all scrutiny and by self assertion immutable. do you see the discrepancy?”
Yes, I do. Precisely why the state needs to clamp down with an iron hand on people who bat for rules designed in obscurity, and try to take a large section of the population into a system where fingers are cut off for theft.
More later.
4 March 2009 at 9:53 pm
By the way, what kind of society do you propose? What kind of ‘secularism’ would you wish to have??
4 March 2009 at 10:32 pm
So Vinay, are you or are you not, for imposition of dress codes? It will naturally rule against the usage of Burkha..even if it were voluntary.
I’m asking you to back up you’re own logic.
4 March 2009 at 10:57 pm
Many live wires are engaged in constructing or deconstructing the indictment against Yediyurappa and his minions’ atrocities in these posts. Many more charges could be justifiably added to the list.
I have one simple question: Are we that naive to imagine that our elected representatives really want to serve those who voted them into power?
An uneducated, hungry populace is the greatest gift of God or some such power to marauding rulers. Such was the case when Nehru started ruling the country as if it were his fiefdom. Thus it is now after sixty-two years.
The picture accompanying the article about two children carrying water on their skinny frames says it all. How much sinful one has to be to ensure being born in India into a certain caste in a certain region?
Surely we are all familiar with the practice of our politicians holding their conclaves at resorts and five star hotels.
5 March 2009 at 9:48 am
pala,
no. no. making the state -a religious in the europe was easy. why? the differences were quazi. almost like the differences between the 8 traditions in a madhva matha. at worst the differences between a advaitin and a madhva. beyond that, there was no diversity in population itself bar one additional category – the secular ones.
even with that additional category, their entire world view was based christian morality. nothing really changed.
in india, the the scene changed completely. our secularism is not gandhian but nehruvian – not something which came out of indian experience, but a borrowed experience. vast difference.
here is useful reference. it gets pretty dense but if you keep at it, its pretty rewarding.
http://heathenfaqs.googlepages.com/jopp1.pdf
jopp.
in general, jopp’s, boss bangalore’s own prof., balagangadhara has dwelt on this issue in some depth.
http://www.cultuurwetenschap.be/
so this, should non-muslims dictate terms to muslims issue. i am not interested in the greater muslim ummah. only indian. within india there has to be ownership of islam. when you own something it is your child. you observe, criticize and shape it in your own image. so, can you tell me for all the islam is a part of india rhetoric, how many critical theses on islam have come out of indian intelligencia? all we have are hagiographies. forget islam, even muslims cant be criticized. on the contrary our intelligencia spends in-ordinate amount of energy in propping up characters, who by any standard of modern humanism, were barbarians into heros.
ditto arabic practices mascarading as islamic injunctions. somehow we find virtue in subjecting one group of indians to vilest of medieval practices.
point is islam and muslims are just like all other religions and humans. they are prone to the same human foibles as the rest of us. behind every jihadi who died vainly trying to destroy somebody else’s peace, there is an evil mullah exploiting the social and measurable miseries of an ordinary human. just as it happens in all other religions. i dunno why we assume that islam has some special sanction and the jihadi is on some divine purpose. ajmal was high on cocaine not islam. behind every jihadi act there are simple measurable human reasons.
the cleanest and safest way to deal with this is a covenant of the contemporaries. the problem is many of us believe the propoganda of the mullahs.
5 March 2009 at 11:23 am
What Vinay says makes a lot of sense.
The govt. should not yield to religious guys- whether it is Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs or Christians.
I completely endorse uniform civil code. Congress was wrong in capitulating to Mullahs in the Shah Bano case.
I want to know from Vinay if he believes in uniform civil code, like I do, what does he think of the following;?
1) . While people from other religions are not expected to flaunt their religious background in the army and the police, Sardarjees are free to wear their turban.
2) while it is not legal for the aam admi to go around nude in a public place, Naga sadhus and some sects of Jains do not have to follow this rule.
5 March 2009 at 12:58 pm
“So Vinay, are you or are you not, for imposition of dress codes?”
First tell me what exactly you mean by a ‘dress code’. In schools, for example, we should certainly have a dress code as decided by that particular school. If a school says, no burkhas within school premises, then there is no further discussion. On the streets however, people can wear Burkhas or drape themselves in garbage bags for all I care.
So no, the Government should not impose or create ‘dress codes’ for the public, while them roam around in public places. But if a Mullah passes an ‘injunction’ that all women in his colony must wear Burkhas, else face the consequences – the state has MUST intervene, to ensure that religious idiocy does not override the laws of the state common to all citizens. One cannot say that a section of society is free to live their life as per their exclusive laws, just by virtue of their being part of a certain religion.
This is how, according to me, the law should be framed. The devil is in the implementation details however.
Simple, more on Sardarjees and naked Sadhus later…..
5 March 2009 at 1:08 pm
tarlesubba – Yes, I agree with you on the European “Quasi” scene.
You would not believe it, but I had Balagangadhara in mind while reading you’re initial post. I have all his works (most), including the Ghent site on my website. (Haven’t visited my own in quite a while though :))
But, I feel I must disagree with you most strongly on the “Secularism” angle.
Really how different was Gandhian “Secularism” from the Nehruvian?
Gandhi called his scheme, Rama Rajya and then quickly corrected a forming perception that it may be derived from Hindu tradition. He said, Rama may be replaced by Allah, Khuda or any other God. He allowed texts of all religions to be read in his prayer meetings. Really, how did he interpret the Qu’ran? Gandhi was good with innovation and Hindu tradition accepts religious tinkering. Not Islam. We learnt this lesson the hardest way possible. Ooops…sorry, we are still learning!
Know what makes me VERY uncomfortable? It’s when Muslim protagonists say “God is great!”…while speaking with Kafirs; when they actually mean “Allah is great!”. The discomfort occurs when Kafirs buy this tripe and NOT when the Muslim sells it.
I’m afraid you are trying to change the DNA of Islam and still want to see “Islam” after the change. This strategy was always used and is still being used by every Liberal worth his salt and its fails every time.
“the problem is many of us believe the propoganda of the mullahs.”
- TS, our “believing” it has never been the problem. The problem has been the Muslim believing it. And why not? Its true.
5 March 2009 at 5:17 pm
“But if a Mullah passes an ‘injunction’ that all women in his colony must wear Burkhas”
- This does not arise according to you’re earlier narration. You said most Muslim women feel “duty bound” to wear the Burkha.
In you’re opinion, being “duty bound” is somehow different from the local Mullah’s injunction?
Also, in connexion with this, if the Muslim populace vote to protect their personal laws, is that not their free choice?
Please remember you are arguing for free choice and I am all for personal laws because I believe, in India’s case, that the full glare of personal law will move the community toward reform or decay. Their free choice entirely.
5 March 2009 at 9:54 pm
“In you’re opinion, being “duty bound” is somehow different from the local Mullah’s injunction?”
Yes? Of course it is different. Most Muslim women consider it pious and correct to wear a Burkha. They see nothing evil or sinister in the Burkha. They feel that they are duty-bound by religion – that immutable word of their god – to wear a Burkha. You’re not doing any favor to them by asking such women to take off their Burkhas – some might think they are being ‘liberated’ but that’s not how they view it. On the other hand we have the Muslim girl who roams on the streets riding a Scooty, visits malls and pubs, smokes, and wears low-waist jeans (of course, such a creature is a tiny minority, but this minority does exist). Now, if a mullah says that all such girls will have to ‘face the consequences’ if they don’t cover up asap, such a Mullah needs to be kicked up his arse by the state (and again, not by ragtag vigilantes). That is the difference in the two scenarios I stated.
“the full glare of personal law will move the community toward reform or decay”
You assume that what happens in one community will not affect the rest of the society in any way, and that each community is completely and totally isolated from the effects of what happens in the other(s). Think about it – if one community ‘decays’, what happens to the country, to society, to the other community?
5 March 2009 at 10:04 pm
To put it more clearly, what happens when the society around you fills up with experts at hand chopping and stoning and sundry other brutalities? When your auto-driver, or co-worker has stoned a woman to death last night? And on the other end of the spectrum, when the MNC employee colleague of yours is scheduled to be beheaded because he fell in love with the girl at the other end of his street? What kind of society do you want India to become? A society full of sick mentally-unstable scum?
5 March 2009 at 11:29 pm
Why does’nt the same ERR complain when money is given to Huj travel…?
6 March 2009 at 6:56 am
pala,
i think i know where you are coming from. i think you are way too libertarian for my taste. it is perhaps ultimately true that things will settle down to levels, that makes sense by the rules of ‘it’.
but what i am not convinced is that the collateral damage incurred while things fall into their equilibrium is worth it. i am also not convinced that things will move without any perturbation.
the thing is we are talking about people in our midst. neither collapses nor explosions ever happen in isolation. there is always a collateral.
6 March 2009 at 1:00 pm
TS – I think I’m not a Libertarian. I just checked the definition :)
Yes, I will agree with Vinay and you about negative spinoff. Well, that’s unavoidable. This is the price we pay for being so negligent of our society and its health.
Again, let me tell you that there is no way the Liberal State will give you a UCC to make things “easy”.
7 March 2009 at 9:50 am
PTL,
Sad no?
Looks like a couple of RSS mouthpieces have been let loose on this forum :)
Along with Tathagatta the spammer who defies any classification.
9 March 2009 at 11:12 am
By the color of the building in the photo, it looks like Congress’s blessings :) … Give BJP govt. some time dear,…
Those who are criticising would have never done anything at all to such schools.
9 March 2009 at 3:16 pm
Off-topic but relevant,
http://www.thehoot.org/web/home/story.php?storyid=3696&mod=1&pg=1§ionId=19&valid=true
Excerpt:
The Mangalore incident was widely condemned while the attack on the Statesman was largely papered over in the media. Is an attack on the freedom of expression of a newspaper editor less significant than that of a woman going to a pub,
22 March 2009 at 12:44 pm
it was simply a waste of our vote, putting Yeddi in the CM’s seat. And what is ESHWARAPAA doing?