How girls pissing in their pants protect Hinduism

Much to the delight of its perpetrators (and their puppeteers), the Mangalore pub incident has petered out into a shrill slugfest on “pub culture”, as if the rights of women to have a good time can be decided by goons and goondas whose chief source of livelihood is protecting “traditional Indian norms of decency”.

What has gone unnnoticed—what has indeed been airbrushed out of the video grabs of the girls “being grabbed by their hair, thrown on the ground, molested, slapped and beaten”—is that the incident was, above all, a brazen attempt at “social re-engineering” that Karnataka’s west coast has become a theatre of.

In a part of the world where “jasmine flower grown on a Christian’s farm [used to be] bought by a Muslim trader and sold to Hindu women”, a grand, multilateral project to divide communities is being executed with clinical precision.

Boys and girls of different communities are not allowed to mingle, make friends, fall in love, hold hands, travel in a bus, live as partners, dance with each other, etc. Different communities that have lived together for centuries are being driven out, ghetto-ised, “to teach a lesson”, for past sins, real and perceived.

To that grim and inglorious list, add the pub incident.

Prasad Attavar, the deputy convenor of the Sri Rama Sena, was quoted by The Hindu, among other newspapers, as saying that the attack was prompted because “these women were Hindus who dared to get close to Muslim men“, as if, again, somehow the Hindu hooligans had been automatically vested with the authority to decide who their womenfolk should hang out with.

But the mainstream media has been happy looking at the wrong end of the animal.

***

Johnson T.A., the Bangalore-based correspondent of The Indian Express, attempts a brave course-correction to the debate in today’s paper. Johnson talks to Pravin Valke, a 40-year-old, fifth-standard drop-out, who was suitably qualified to be a “founding member of the Sri Rama Sena”.

Valke drops these gems:

“‘These girls come from all over India, drink, smoke, and walk around in the night spoiling the traditional girls of Mangalore. A girl from Punjab was drugged, raped, and killed last month. There was no hue and cry then.

“Why should girls go to pubs? Are they going to serve their future husbands alcohol? Should they not be learning to make chapattis? Bars and pubs should be for men only.

“‘We wanted to ensure that all women in Mangalore are home by 7 pm’.

“According to Valke, the pub attack and assault on girls were intended to send a warning to youths in Mangalore, especially those who come from outside to study in city’s colleges and other institutions, and to tell the people of the city that the local culture is “well protected”.

One of his associates boasts of an incident where they made some girls urinate in their pants after threatening to beat them up for going around with boys from other communities.

“No one dares to tease girls. No one plays loud music in cars around colleges,” he says.

“Nearly 70 per cent of Mangalore lives in small, traditional middle class homes. Everywhere women are telling us that the Sena boys did the right thing. Only those who live in flats seem to be upset.”

Johnson also talks to the 76-year-old Muslim writer Sara Aboobacker, one of the first educated women from the Muslim community, who has lived in Mangalore for the last 50 years:

“There is Hindu Talibanisation and there is Muslim Talibanisation. Fundamentalism is on the rise among the Muslims, especially after the arrival of the Jamait-i-Islami. Muslim boys go around forcing girls to wear burqas. These are individual decisions. Who are these people to dictate what should be done? It is the Indian Constitution that should be followed…. The only communication these days between communities is among the very rich and the very poor and not among the middle class.”

Read the full article here: Mangalore’s metamorphosis

Also read: CHURUMURI POLL: Girls drinking beer not Hindu?

‘Let the moral police stop going to bars first’

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118 Responses to “How girls pissing in their pants protect Hinduism”

  1. Karihaida Says:

    Again? chennagi hindi hippe maadaitalva, innen ulidide?

    Grow up churmuri, unless you want to cater to Mr.Pravin Valke kind of audience in which case, good job :)

  2. Goldstar Says:

    Ok. This is it. I am getting converted from Hinduism to Islam. Happy??

  3. Cool Dude Says:

    Mangalore incident has been over discussed everywhere. Not even Kargil war or 26/11 had seen this much lime light all praise goes to ‘leftist’ media. Churumuri is not an exception!

  4. Palahalli Says:

    Excellent! Now V.T. Rajshekhar can be the Secular-Liberal bench mark! Fun begins now.

  5. etvraviraja Says:

    1. How Janavaadi vedike : a leftist womens organization- for beedi rolling tribe, is involved in this episode?
    2. Why leftists are worried about Pubs- reserved for a class hated by them?
    3. Oh churumuri- todays breaking news is police caught on camera…beating a 6 year old girl, stealing 280 rupees…please be up to date if you want to compete with “chilre” channels!

  6. kharaharapriya Says:

    Churumuri saakri, yestu anta idanne heltirtira?? why not an article on the CEC controversy??

  7. Antuna Hindu Says:

    Shameful, what else can I say

  8. links for 2009-02-03 « Unjustly Says:

    [...] How girls pissing in their pants protect Hinduism « churumuri Much to the delight of its perpetrators (and their puppeteers), the Mangalore pub incident has petered out into a shrill slugfest on “pub culture”, as if the rights of women to have a good time can be decided by goons and goondas whose chief source of livelihood is protecting “traditional Indian norms of decency”. What has gone unnnoticed—what has indeed been airbrushed out of the video grabs of the girls “being grabbed by their hair, thrown on the ground, molested, slapped and beaten”—is that the incident was, above all, a brazen attempt at “social re-engineering” that Karnataka’s west coast has become a theatre of. (tags: culture attack hinduism radicals militant) [...]

  9. kannadiga:) Says:

    Churmuri of the the late has become predictable and this is how it goes
    Day 1 – Article bashing Modi/Gujarat
    Day 2 – Article bashing Yeddi
    Day 3 – Praising the assorted psec thugs like Guha,URA etc
    Day 4 – Praising Tamil/Hindi movies
    Day 5 – Article bashing Hindus/Hinduism
    Day 6 – Rehash of Babri/Godra
    Day 7 – Singing hosannas of Sonia/Priyanka/Rahul and their pet dog

  10. bomma Says:

    Churumuri,

    Chennagi helidhira.

    No answers from hindu upper caste taliban types on why they support ram sene type thugs who want to beat up women. Except for, ‘saak ri, bere vishaya maathadona’, ‘lets close our eyes and pretend these ram sene heroes dont exist and let them do their work’, ‘muslim this and this’ etc.

  11. Vinay Says:

    The people on this page are all in the mood of “saarki, eshtu idanne heltirtira?”, “leftist media”, “over discussion”, “secularists”, and all the rest of that bullshit.

    And the same people will crib and cry saying that “We, in India, forget things too soon. We are ready to forget, suffer in silence. No wonder India is going to the dogs”.

    Yes, no wonder India is going to the dogs. Bastards like the Ram Sena are now acting and giving speeches as though they have done something to be very proud of. That rascal Mutalik openly says that he will target Valentine’s day next, he will continue his “good work”. And this scum is one who has a multitude of criminal cases against him, remember.

    And the brilliant people here want to put an end to the discussion, coz’ it has been “over discussed” already. Really? No, it has not bloody been over-discussed. I am with that guy Arnab of Times Now, who promised not to stop coverage of this, till the scum are really made to pay for their rascaldom. Not sure if Times Now will actually do it, but that is precisely what we should bloody be doing.

    My above post does not apply to you if you favor what the Ram Sena did. If you are of that category, you can stick your head-in-your-ass and fart about how well Indian culture is being defended by these scoundrels.

  12. Tathagata Mukherjee Says:

    As I stated earlier: why not all these people and their leaders- Rahul Gandhi, Brinda Karat….(preferably) take their daughters, sisters, wives, wearing similar dress go to the (illegal) pub, drink and then dance.

    This will be real Gandhigiri :)-

    Womens rights to wear skimpy dress, drink in illegal bar, dance with romeos must be uphold.

    ***

    >>“The only communication these days between communities is among the very rich and the very poor and not among the middle class,” says Sara Aboobacker.

    I don’t agree with Sara Aboobacker’s other expressed views. But this one is correct. The question now is, media, primarily consumed by middle class, is following whose agenda? Obviously, not that of middle class, its primary consumer/reader.

  13. sisya Says:

    They pissed in their pants?! LOL that’s funny :D

  14. Sandesh Says:

    Vinay
    I was agreeing with you till the last paragraph :)

    Sisya
    Are you really ‘enjoying’ this ?

  15. Sakshi Says:

    Mr. ‘Cool Dude’… if you want to discuss, go ahead and post stuff related to the issues you think are worth discussing. If you have a problem with what Churmuri publishes, why do you visit the website, read the article and then even post a comment saying ‘its being discussed too much’. Arent you contradicting yourself?
    Etvraviraja… wow man, what you seem to have all the inside news or did you get an akashvani saying Janavaadi was involved?? And hello… maybe you have not been to the pubs, that’s why you don’t know that most of us who hang out in the pubs are the middle class people… (if only all those girls who were beaten up were all daughters of millionaire industrialists… the ram sena thugs would have got screwed, even politically, by now). So do you mean we, the middle class is hated by the leftists?? And yeah ofcourse an insensitive obtuse pig like you only would think that it doesn’t deserve attention if the poor children in our country are being snatched away their human rights from them! Sorry I forgot you don’t understand the meaning of Human Rights, leave alone knowing its importance!
    Kharaharapriya… I would say the same thing to you, if you are so interested, why don’t you initiate the discussion of CEC controversy in any forum you like. It will be appreciated. But, why do people like you force the media and society to butt out an issue and not follow it up until any sort of justice is met with?
    Kannadiga… what would you say to a Hindu (Kannadiga) like me, who inspite of the past wanted to give another chance to BJP, even Modi (Because even Congress have done the same with Sikhs, so I did not have any option), thinking they may keep up their word, respect the democracy and work towards the development. But now, I am totally disappointed with BJP (bcos of their links to bodies such as Bajrang dal and ram sena and shiv sena etc.), who are repeating the same thing again and again. Yadiyurappa had such a good chance to cleanse the mistakes and walk towards a better future, but he is screwing everything up…. By allowing all such things to happen and then give stupid statements such as ‘pub culture will not be ALLOWED’. What a fool! Myself as a Hindu girl in india would now rather go for congress now, so that such a thing wont happen with me (even though I used to hate congress before Yediyurappa became the CM… but Yeddi is so bad that he made me feel like Congress was better…. Krishna was too good when compared to yeddi…. I regret that in the last elections I voted for BJP).
    Bomma…. I wish everybody understood the gravity of the situation like you did.
    Vinay… we need more people like you in India. Only few people like you and Bomma make me feel that we still have hope.
    Tathagata… who said they don’t ‘take’ their sisters, daughters, wives to pubs?(BTW, for your information, sisters, daughters, and wives are not pieces of property who should be ‘taken’ along to any place) And please what gandhigiri are you talking about…. Like how an old Mahatma Gandhi used to make young girls in his ashram to sleep next to him to test his capacity to maintain celibacy? (and nobody knows if he passed or failed). I do have respect for Mahatma Gandhi, on certain levels, but we should not follow any human (or even anything, including religion) blindly. Have a mind of your own! Learn to think for yourself. Atleast, that’s what MY Hinduism has taught me, to THINK for myself, and then differentiate between good and bad, and join the good and be against the bad. Its because of MY Hinduism I am against elements such as Muthalik and yourself!

  16. Sakshi Says:

    Sisya… you are nothing more significant of the face of the earth, than a tiny little piece of scum! There is nothing more anyone can say to a ‘thing’ like you (I cant even call you a person…. Bcos you have no humanity in you).

  17. ಕನ್ನಡಿಗ Says:

    only hindus will tolerate an article with such a headline.

  18. Melange Says:

    Collectivist tribal mindsets ( this includes political ideologies) always lead to conflict. Any Democracy that promotes group think engages in self mutilation. The Indian Constitution has failed miserably in seeking to create a populace with enough individualism, opinion and decency that might prevent evil like the one on show in Mangalore.

    On the other hand, it ( the Constitution) has promoted collectivist divisions based on religions, castes, languages, political parties, the color of one’s butt cheeks etc…. All this in the name of Diversity. And how the ‘Unity in Diversity’ slogan has come to bite India in the ass!! No cookies for predicting that it will only get worse.

    Diversity should be on the level of a fierce individualism. A sane and prosperous society requires as a bedrock requires incendiary individualism. Great Countries are built by individuals, not by sheep.

    India got her ass rammed: by her own Constitution.

  19. Kencha Says:

    Hindus and their supporters are backward and uneducated – As represented by Pravin Valkhe 5th standard drop out.

    Muslims are the most progressive people on earth. They are introspective and all for reform. – As represented by 76 yeard old Muslim writer Sara Aboobacker.

    There is Hindu Talibanization and hence Muslim Talibanization and only because of it. Poor muslims they have become forced to become fundamentalists. If not for the Hindu Talibans they would be peaceful doves.

    Muslim writer urges us to follow Indian Constitution. The Sharia law for muslim personal laws only.

    Who is spinning the yarn here.

  20. Palahalli Says:

    To all Liberals/Individualists – You’re abuse of “Rama Sene” or similar such outfit, is to say the very least, misplaced.

    There are two issues -

    1. Law & Order – You guys seem to be placing all of you’re eggs in this basket. This is no insurance against a “Rama Sene” phenomenon.

    2. Deeper Societal Concerns – Addressing these will make sure there will not be a “Rama Sene” phenomenon.

    In “you’re” scheme of things, there is a complete embrace of the Police machinery to the complete exclusion of more natural checks and balances that our society nurtures.

    In our society, the Police have always been secondary to the primary societal check. This is a glaring difference between the manner our cities are “developing” and the way the rest of our country is moving. Unsurprisingly, you will find the “law & order” machinery is in less of a sway in the latter.

    In short, the weaker our Society becomes, more our reliance on the Police. I invite you to cross-check this fact and tell me if I am wrong.

    Our society is NOT individualistic. The cry…”I will do what I want to..so long as its within the bounds of law!”, sounds ridiculous.

    Individuals in our society carry responsibilities on his/her respective backs. An individual, who forsakes responsibilities, is a renegade and will fend for himself/herself before long. That is a fact.

    Yes, times change. Pulls and pressures are there. There are also temptations. Hindu society does not forbid anything but excess of anything.
    That is the delicate balance that “you’re” renegade Liberal – Individualism threatens to destroy.

    “You’re” first fanaticism of the opposite kind does not, nay, refuses to respect this delicate balance.

    1. Gay rights to wed and adopt.

    2. Rubbishing the “family” and its relationships.

    3. Encouraging “single” parenthood.

    4. “Child rights” as divorced from parental obligation toward that Child’s future. (That’s what you demand when you speak of unfettered right to vices) and there are “parents” who grant their wards the “right” to vice. No surprises..these are “you’re” Liberal camp followers. “Thank heavens I can get some free time for myself!”

    5. Individualism as a right in itself loyal only to the “Constitution” quickly forgetting that the Constitution will wither if Society turns away from it.

    6. Hammering away at rights but conveniently forgetting responsibilities.

    This is but a very brief and unsophisticated list, but none that can be denied.

    For “you” to abuse “Rama Sena” without recognizing the symptom is useless. The “Senas” can be banned but let me assure you, they will not go away as long as there is some real LIFE left in our Society. The “Senas” are but a very crude devise that our Society has forged to combat “you’re” irresponsible adventurism. The “Muthaliks” are not alone.

    I would like to respond to some specific remarks -

    bomma – If you were really aware, you would realize that the Hindu movement is dominated by Shudras, not Brahmins.

    Tathagatha – No Liberal Individualist will accept you’re challenge because of an innate lack of courage. They have no one they can rely on for support but themselves and that’s too small a “group”. That’s their own choice.

    Sakshi – Gandhi was being an individualist. What makes you think the women he “slept” with refused him and did not agree on their own? What makes you think “they” were not being individualists? You have absolutely no right to criticize Gandhi for exercising HIS right of choice!

    On you supporting or opposing the BJP…feel free to make you’re choice. Frankly, the BJP has a very long way to go to be in any position to help this country.

    “Sisya” is actually being his spiteful best! Good for him and I’m with him!

    I would suggest everybody read “Melange” carefully. “He/she” is the best example of what a Liberal/Individualist wants the State to become to its citizens and to our natural Society. It is more than laughable that such specimen passing off as humans, abuse the “Rama Senas” of this world!

    To the likes of “Melange”, human beings are nothing more that guinea pigs in a lab cage.

  21. Cool Dude Says:

    @Sakshi,

    “If you have a problem with what Churmuri publishes, why do you visit the website”

    Going with same lines, if you have to go to pubs, go to Bangalore and do it. Why in Mangalore?
    If I don’t agree with Churumuri’s views, thats why the section of comments is given. Not just for the people who agree with it. Grow up to respect the opposite views. There is no absolute right in the world, and if you think your view alone should exist, I can’t help, just laugh.

  22. Not A Witty Nick Says:

    Hey! What about the news that two of those girls were daughters of an MP and MLA of Congress Party and the party does not want them to assert their rights?

    Just imagine, instead of those idiots, what if there were assailants with more harmful weapons?
    Does that pub even have a fire/emergency exit? Very few of these pubs and discotheques conform to building norms(no building can conform to those archaic norms, but these flout them totally).

  23. etvraviraja Says:

    Sakshi
    Mind your language if you expect some respect from other human beings. Discuss the ideologies, if you have the substance, not call others names…
    I am reminded…if someone has problem with everybone on the earth (in this case you have grouse against all commenters!), problem lies with you!

    I still stand by my question:
    what is the relationship of beedi rolling womens organization with pubs?
    see report: http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Jan282009/district20090127115021.asp

  24. Gururaj B.N. Says:

    For muslims, multiplying their number is of highest priority. What could not be done by sword will be achieved by demographic seige. Matrimony with Hindu girls is a favourite method of obtaining another breeding machine in the advancement of Islam’s cause. In any marriage beween a muslim and a kafir, the kafir has to change his religion, muslim won’t. Thus, Islam gains one person, besides obtaining another “tilth” (to quote Al Baqra) for muslim babies. This was the modus operandi adopted in Pakistan and Bangladesh. Hindus were either “persuaded” or coerced to part with their daughters. Now the Hindu population is around 3% in both the countries. It is no wonder that the newspapers have been careful not to reveal that the Pub was owned by Muslims. It is a regret that the girls were targeted instead of the Pub.

  25. kannadiga:) Says:

    >>Kannadiga… what would you say to a Hindu (Kannadiga) like me, who inspite of the past wanted to give another chance to BJP, even Modi (Because even Congress have done the same with Sikhs, so I did not have any option), thinking they may keep up their word, respect the democracy and work towards the development. But now, I am totally disappointed with BJP (bcos of their links to bodies such as Bajrang dal and ram sena and shiv sena etc.), who are repeating the same thing again and again. Yadiyurappa had such a good chance to cleanse the mistakes and walk towards a better future, but he is screwing everything up…. By allowing all such things to happen and then give stupid statements such as ‘pub culture will not be ALLOWED’. What a fool! Myself as a Hindu girl in india would now rather go for congress now, so that such a thing wont happen with me (even though I used to hate congress before Yediyurappa became the CM… but Yeddi is so bad that he made me feel like Congress was better…. Krishna was too good when compared to yeddi…. I regret that in the last elections I voted for BJP).
    >>

    Sakshi,

    I sympathise with you and the other girls who were manhandled by the goons in Mangalore and hope they are brought to book asap.

    Having said that it is too premature to pronounce a verdict on Yeddi’s rule in the state, the jury is still out. However, I wish we had a more effective and charismatic home minister than this Acharya bloke who does not inspire me at all.

    Krishna was very media savvy, I do not fault you for falling for his style of working even though there was no substance in what he did. Corruption was institutionalised during his regime in the state and the IT/BT guys got prime land for a song in return for a place for Krishna on the board of directors of the said companies. You can get a lot of good publicity if you take care of the important journos especially ELM one’s by giving them sites in bangalore out of turn. This is what Krishna was doing and hence everybody including you see him in a very favourable light.

    Regards,

    Kannadiga

  26. kharaharapriya Says:

    “Kannadati” Sakshi,
    Akkayya swalpa maatin mele niga irli.

    There are earlier posts which are discussing the same issue. Why repeat it again and again.

    You talk of freedom etc. Where does your voice go when lakhs of women are meted out shoddy treatment in rural areas. Meter idre go and uplift the muslim women. Go shout at the mullas. Of course you can’t Mullas ondu fatwa issue maadi awaaz haakdre neevu ucche huykolodene. :)

    Palahalli,

    Very much agree to your points.

  27. etvraviraja Says:

    http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Jan282009/district20090127115021.asp
    also note in the above link, the Janavaadi lady even has issued a license to the pub!

  28. Tathagata Mukherjee Says:

    Palahalli>>Tathagatha – No Liberal Individualist will accept you’re challenge because of an innate lack of courage.

    True sir. The headline should be changed to:

    Psuedos pissing in their pants.

    Consider the issue of Taslima, Rushdie, Da Vinci Code, Madrasa, Illegal Bangladesis, Shah Banu, singing Vande Mataram in ALL schools…- psuedos pissed in their pants.

    EVEN RULE OF LAW- SUPREME COURT, HIGH COURT JUDGEMENT DOES NOT MATTER FOR PSUEDOS….

    ONLY THOSE PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE RIGHTS TO SPEAK ON THIS WHO OPPOSED (say) Shah Banu, stood for Taslima.

    So far I have seen, these intellectuals qualify:

    Mahashweta Devi
    Ram Guha
    Pratap Bhanu Mehta

  29. Tathagata Mukherjee Says:

    Sakshi>> what would you say to a Hindu (Kannadiga) like me, who inspite of the past wanted to give another chance to BJP, even Modi (Because even Congress have done the same with Sikhs, so I did not have any option)

    3 times people died in Gujarat in 1969( when compared to 2002), a week before Gandhi’s birth centenary in his adopted home Ahmedabad.

    Who was runing then? Obviously Congress.

    How many Hindus died in 1969 Guj riots, 1984 Sikh massacre at the hands of police bullet?

    None.

    How many Hindus died in 2002 Guj riots at the hands of Police?

    Some 200.

    I wouldn’t ask how many died driven out in Kashmir, or 1971-72 Bangladesh. That runs in MILLIONS.

    Society know all these facts. That’s why Muslims were given shelter in Sabarmati Ashram (of Gandhi) during 1969 riots. But, they were REFUSED to be given sheter in 2002.

    Lessons from these events are very dangerous. And psuedos are adding fuel to the fire by selective communal appeasement of Muslims and abusing whoever speak about Hindus.

  30. Sandesh Says:

    Palahalli

    “An individual, who forsakes responsibilities, is a renegade and will fend for himself/herself before long. That is a fact.”

    Tell me, what “responsibilities” did those young women and men forsake ?

    “Hammering away at rights but conveniently forgetting responsibilities.”

    Again, what are the “responsibilites” you are speaking of ? Who sets these responsibilities ? Are these “responsibilities” carved on rock that they don’t change ?

    “For “you” to abuse “Rama Sena” without recognizing the symptom is useless.”

    What are these “symptoms” you are referring to ?

    Palahalli, I hope you are not justifying the deeds of RS. Suppose a few of my friends decide that women should not venture out of the house from, say, 9-10pm on sunday night. And hit/slap any women who does claiming that this was due to their irresponsible adventurism. Would you agree with me and my friends ?

    Sounds silly right ? It is silly because,
    No one gives me any rights to determine what is acceptable or what is not. Even if I have a handful of supporters.

    Similar is the case of a group of youngsters drinking in a pub. You see, they were doing what they considered right (they too had a sizable number of people with them). So, how is their actions irresponsible while the RS goon’s not ? Who sets the benchmark ?

    Regarding gay rights, rubbishing family, single parent… these are just a distorted and one-sided view of yours about us liberals. I whole heartedly support gay marraige, single parenting and nuclear families. Des that make me any lesser/greater being than you ?

    ““right” to vice”

    Tell me again, who decides what is vice and what is virtue ?

    “well connected goons”

    That’s precisely who the RS are… well connected goons. If we are ascribing any bigger role to them than what they are, we are living in denial. Please. They are least bothered about “culture”, “tradition” and “responsibilities”.

  31. Hanky Panky Says:

    >>Boys and girls of different communities are not allowed to mingle, make friends, fall in love, hold hands, travel in a bus, live as partners, dance with each other, etc

    Your outrage wouldn’t sound so phony if you lamented first about letting boys and girls of the *same community* mingle with each other, for purposes as mundane as receiving an education:

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/UP_Madrasa_board_bans_co-education/articleshow/4060032.cms

    Incidentally, Arjun Singh promoted these august institutions to the level of CBSE schools.

  32. Prashanth Bhat Says:

    Just dropped into read the comments.

    :) keep it up folks

    “PASSION INVARIABLY BREEDS VIOLENCE”

  33. hari Says:

    ‘Indian culture’ is now backward because we spend all our time defending it against ghosts of all kinds. So, is many a cultures in the world gone or dying. India is not because of Pakistan. Hindus are not because of muslims. But if that is the way everyone wants to argue, there will be no difference between each. So, it goes. Indian culture today is more marked by feudalism than any other aspect. Its not Ram Rajya and hence there is no choice but to fight for rights – women, gay, individual, and all other. But it seems if 20% of certain Indians can have a stable life – the loads of people with poverty, unstable lives are invisible. And nothing must be done about it in the name of our culture and what it used to be once. Pure signs of blindness, lack of courage, creativity and insight among us all.

  34. Gaby Says:

    Sakshi,
    How dare you you come into this place polpulated mostly by middle aged men full of patriarchal charcoal in their bellies, dreaming of a saffron resurgence and challenge their views. It is great fun if they call someone b maga or s maga but when the finger points at them wow do they turn nasty! Well we sisters have to stick together and yes there are are occasional nice guys like Vinay but trust me the best thing to do is to come here occassionally laugh at the mostly foolish sentiments and ( unlike those here who actually think goons like the R Sene were heroic) get on with your life.

  35. bomma Says:

    Nice to see the upper caste jihadi type hindus jumping on a woman poster (sakshi) and telling her to ‘mind her language’ and ‘behave herself’.

    Mob-like behaviour at its best.

    Is clear where ram sene gets its inspiration and leadership from :)

  36. Mysore Peshva Says:

    The journalists of Outlook and Churumuri who equate the Taliban with Mangalore’s Sri Rama Sene are shallow in their perception and naive in their analysis.

    The ideologically driven atrocities of the Taliban are in no way comparable to the idiosyncratic hooliganism of the SRS.

    Isn’t there a difference between evil and hooliganism, or am I mistaken?

    Only an uninformed — or deeply prejudiced — mind would draw a comparison between the Taliban and the Sri Rama Sene. Only a Holocaust revisionist would draw a comparison of current Israeli excesses with the Nazis atrocities in the 1930-40s. Clearly, the comparison is preposterous.

    Between them, on this issue, the journalists of both Outlook and Churumuri are ignoring evidence to display poor journalism. I am confident that readers/browsers/voters are too smart to fall for their nonsense.

  37. Palahalli Says:

    Mysore Peshva – Well said!

    bomma – Gaby – hari = unwarranted useless bullshit.

    Prashant Bhat – Passion is good. Passion is necessary. In and out of this forum.

  38. P. Bilimale Says:

    Brahma married to his daughter, Yama married to his sister, Sun God and His son Yama got child from same woman-Kunthi, Krishna played rasalila all over, Indra secreatly slept with Ahalya when her husband was out, Rama made Sita to jump into fire, What a great Hindu Culture? Jai ho Shrirama sena !

  39. Karihaida Says:

    Churumuri commenters have magical powers …
    Gaby can tell the age of a commenter (middle aged men) and bomma can tell the caste of a commenter (upper caste). Awesome :)

    Its high time Godwin’s law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law is modified for Churumuri use “As a Churumuri discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving uppercastes/saffron approaches one.”

  40. Palahalli Says:

    P. Bilimale – Sir, Hindus will acknowledge these “facts”…discuss them…even browbeat the “actors” like you do now.

    Of course Hindu culture is super great! Not simply great.

    Now, where is you’re problem?

  41. bomma Says:

    Palahalli – Karihaida = Definitely upper caste. Go on deny it :)
    Palahalli – Total bullshit and thinks he can make up for lack of content by loquaciousness.
    Tathaghatta – Super advanced form of Palahalli. The Jai Maharaj of desi forums. http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Jai_Maharaj

  42. Palahalli Says:

    bomma – New age prophet :)

  43. bomma Says:

    Karihaida,

    Godwin’s law was pretty good.

    Here’s one for you:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial

    Ram sene and their beating up women (which this thread is about) is directly related to upper castes/saffron. Aadharu denial? Onthara defense mechanismaa?

  44. bomma Says:

    Palahalli – Still full of bullshit :)

  45. Vinay Says:

    Karihaida:

    Here are a few more modifications of Godwin’s law applicable to churumuri:

    “As discussions on any conceivable topic are brought up on churumuri, the probability of numbskulls bringing in issues of “Pseudo Secularism/Left/Liberals” approaches 1″.

    “As malicious scoundrels obfuscate the issue and begin taking the topic on a tangent, the probability that Tathagata ‘Bokachoda’ Mukherjee will start off a history lesson, approaches 1″

    The entire goddamn nation has started debating “Pub culture”, “Dresses worn by girls”, “BJP vs. Congress”, while conveniently brushing the core issue under the carpet.

    Carry on, allow hoodlums like Muthalik to flower and prosper, give them silent support and encouragement, and your children will pay the price one day.

  46. Karihaida Says:

    bomma,
    saar if you think the SRS incident is related to uppercastes/saffron, then you are a genius :)

    The maarvaadi in me thinks that they could be even sponsored by Hallmark/Archies, given the number of people that are going to celebrate Valentine’s day as a mark of protest against SRS incident.
    PS: Ladies who don’t have a V-day date to show your protest against the evil SRS, don’t worry, Karihaida is always at your service ;)

  47. Palahalli Says:

    “Ram sene and their beating up women (which this thread is about) is directly related to upper castes/saffron.”

    - Hege? Onthara vichitra vaada alwa?

    Please share the castewise break-up of the Rama Sena. How many Brahmins? How many Shudras?

  48. hari Says:

    The guys who project on behalf of Ram Sene are more ‘islamic’ than muslims, more ‘victorian’ than christains. Luckily typical Indians are not so. They are typically quiet and that is why India looks tolerant. But that may not be so and than we will find out who is the real minority. India is many layers kept invisible but this may just be the start of the peeling process.

  49. Sandesh Says:

    My final two cents of words!

    1. Equating Rama sene with taliban is certainly overdoing it.
    2. Equating the entire “upper caste” with taliban is certainly stupid.
    3. No way, there can be ANY sympathy to RS goons.
    4. The debate about culture, tradition, rights and responsibilities cannot be handed over to RS type goons.
    5. The govt should crack down strictly on all the fundamentalist units..be it RS, mullahs or padres.
    6. While criticizing others, please bear in mind not to use dirty language. However good your argument is…using swear words will take away the merits of your argument. And it will only spite the others. Issue gets derailed.

    Palahalli
    I was only trying to highlight that there cannot be a moral high ground among us.. no one can/should claim superiority over others with whatever claims they can dream up. There is nothing “liberal” or “conservatives” among people… In fact, our Hindu culture is quite “liberal”…as you must know .. of all the people :).

    If you still “sympathize” with RS goons, think of a day when they might ask all women folk to sit at home and not come out. Will you sympathize then ? To prevent such a hypothetical situation .. we must nip this tendency in the bud.

    “A” movie nodidira? Adralli ondu dialogue ide… “India is great, Indian culture is great..but Indians are not great”… Uppi tells this when a group of thugs are trying to rape a women… What RS goons tried to do was a mini-rape on that day. No way a sensible person will / should support them… for whatever reason.

    Media
    Don’t, for cheap TRP sake, go into hyperbole.

  50. bomma Says:

    Some views from another part of the world the incident of ram sene thugs beating up Indian women:

    http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/7v65g/india_shocked_as_moral_police_beat_girls_out_of/

  51. Karihaida Says:

    “Pub Bharo”. Awesome :)

    http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=TOI&BaseHref=TOIBG/2009/02/06&PageLabel=1&EntityId=Ar00103&ViewMode=HTML&GZ=T

  52. Prashanth Bhat Says:

    Well I can’t hold back my words.

    A majority of them here seem to be anatgonising the liberal mindset by equating the philosophy of liberalism with the limited and imbecile views held by a few men and women, who in turn equate liberalism with acceptance of others right to live a life of their choice (read freedom to eat, drink and wear). It’s very unfortunate on both counts; those who profess liberalism and have a narrow world view or those who go on a liberals bashing spree. I suppose if we intend to utilize this forum in a positive way and not just to spew venom on our detractors, we need to take the discussion to the next level. As a civilized society we need to accept our differences and our right to have them and acknowledge that a public space like this forum should not be allowed to become a backyard for hatred and of course exercising our cursing excellence.

    On this short note ( :), I am smiling too) I have a thought that suggests that majority of people who have posted in favour of safeguarding culture are doing so out of the fear of not having access to an impartial judiciary, executive and I don’t have to say anything about our political class. This backed by years of minority appeasement in the garb of socialism & communism, coupled with dilution of our own societal ethics (now that’s a hard nut to crack), have created enough fear in the minds that if something proactive and violent is not done it would be doomsday for the hindu majority of the country. Under such circumstances, what do we do? How can we avoid violence and yet be influential in creating a turnaround such that every citizen of this country is equal irrespective of whether he is a muslim or christian (I have left out the hindus on purpose because there has never been any favourable bias on them in this country). Do we give the reigns of our principles in the hands of dirty men like Mutalik, Valke etc.? Now that’s a choice we have to make. If we do not intend to, than how do we common men and women address the issue without resorting to violence? I understand that in ceratin issues violence is inevitable but at the same time I dead sure that an issue of cultural proportions would certainly deem no violence and it would paradoxical and anachronistic in this time and era.

    I am not sure if I have been able to express clearly what I intended to but I have made an attempt. Can we just please stop bashing up people in this forum and have a healthy debate instead of venting our frustrations?

    I do not know how I am gonna be bashed for this post but than I thought I would give it a try.

  53. kharaharapriya Says:

    bommanna,
    From where did you get to know the caste of people belonging to Rama sene. You must be having some divine power to identify the castes of people, just by watching them on TV. :)

  54. anonymous guy Says:

    i love this sexist argment used by commenters.If you disagree with sakshi you are doing it because she is a woman.Someone made the same comment in the barkha dutt piece condemning her fascist lawsuit against a blogger and not admiral malik who has not apologized or retracted and ndtv is scared to fight him because the truth will be exposed in court.

    Great analyical skills using gender as a defence.We should have voted ms INdira Gandhi back in power after emergency.How sexist of us to defeat her.her emergency was motherly affection for all of us.And her jail bharo steps were a mother’s bonus to her special children like jp narayan and those from the rss etc.

  55. karthik Says:

    Please read this artical written by a French Person…

    http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20090209&fname=Cover+Story&sid=6

    Is the information true??? Are we losing our Identity???

  56. Palahalli Says:

    Prashanth Bhat – Sensible stance.

    Now you have the onerous task of dragging Liberals out of the muck they’ve fallen into.

    In my opinion, the first sin was not Rama Sena’s. It was the media’s that blew this incident out of all proportions and made it “this” larger debate on “values” and “freedom” and indeed…”Hindu Taliban (??!)” and “Hindutva” itself. A brief perusal of articles and Liberal comments in this forum, will confirm my position.

    That done, there was simply no way this debate could have been held to where it should have stopped in the first place. That of a gang beating up people while media recorded and televised instead of helping these lay folk by calling cops or doing it (helping) themselves.

    I notice some of my friends rapidly pulling back to the original core position they should never have left. I applaud their efforts…

    In the meanwhile, how can I not sympathize with the Rama Sene when I realize that their “targets” were so worthy of such treatment? I hope you get my drift?

  57. kharaharapriya Says:

    To be very frank the more you create a ruckus on RS and give them screen space, the more powerful they become. The more would parents look up such to such goons to tame their children.
    This is something I realized a few days back when I over-heard a few well educated people very much vocal and supportive of RS in a nearby park.
    And we really can’t blame them for that. Many are worried parents for whatever reasons known to them.

  58. Palahalli Says:

    Francois Gautier is spot on in that Outlook article.

  59. hypocrite Says:

    palahalli seems to classic pseudo-hindu. Must be a upper-caste guy notice how he passes judgment on comments but never explains anything he comments on.

    These pseudo-hindu are the big problem to out religion, they bad-mouth other religion but in turn do the same.

    the pub attack was nothing to do culture, there is another bar just adjacent to it which is frequented by girls but a single stone was thrown at them.

  60. Tathagata Mukherjee Says:

    Palahalli: The bais of English media is so evident.

    Even after 60 hours of Mumbai horror, ndtv did not utter “Islamic terrorism”. But as soon as Mangalore happened, it started using “Hindu talibanization”.

    Anyway, the more they do these, the more media loose middle ground. Public understands everything.

  61. Tathagata Mukherjee Says:

    Bhat>>Do we give the reigns of our principles in the hands of dirty men like Mutalik, Valke etc.? Now that’s a choice we have to make. Now that’s a choice we have to make. If we do not intend to, than how do we common men and women address the issue without resorting to violence?

    Even during peak period of Stalin, MORE people stood in line for the holy water from Church in Moscow than those stood in the line of Lenin’s memorial.

    For last many decades, biggest seller in Calcutta book fair, world’s largest in terms of attendance, are religious books. Not the writing of Gandhi, or Nehru or Karl marx (even taken together, their number don’t come close to that of Hanuma Chalisha).

    Biased, votebank centric approach of psuedos in India, abuse majority, pampering extreme fundamentalism of minority have helped Hindutva to grow. And it will in the coming decades as urbanization grows. There as usual, will be aberration.

    Yes, I broadly agree with what you said- violence is not the way.

    But who are these psuedos, and media to LECTURE us?

    They always surrendered before violence perpetuated by minority.

    How and why India was partitioned?
    Because of violence, particularly great Calcutta massacre in 1946. SP Mookerjee was opposed to partition of bengal/India prior to that. But he changed position after 16th Aug, 1946. So did Nehru and Patel.

    Remember , how and why Rajiv Gandhi did U trun on Shah Banu?
    It was violence by Muslim Mob.

    So, let the stop preaching us first. Hindu society is powerful enough to self-correct itself, as demonstrated in last 5000 years many a times. And they will do it.

  62. Palahalli Says:

    hypocrite – Are you finding it so difficult to respond well?

    Where have I not been clear or clarified my stance?

    “the pub attack was nothing to do culture, there is another bar just adjacent to it which is frequented by girls but a single stone was thrown at them.”
    - If this is true, and I do believe you; then the entire Liberal anti-Hindutva tirade falls flat!

  63. Sandesh Says:

    Our media is the master at hijacking the real issue and turning it into another Hindu baiting. Look at the edit today in Hindu… He is screaming at the top of his lungs (pen) that RS and co are “Hindu Taliban”…
    I am sure, by giving more and more publicity to goons like RS, we are making them heroes out of nothing!!

    When will we get responsible and sensible media, politicians and citizens !!

  64. Siddharth Singh Says:

    It’s a post on the nonsense by the Sangh and their line of hindutva at the grassroots:

    http://bigotblog.wordpress.com/2008/09/28/a-widening-divide/

    They plan to do a Gujarat in Rajasthan!!

  65. JM Says:

    The mangalore incident was actually caused by DYFI (student wing of CPI(M)…See this link
    http://www.timesnow.tv/Newsdtls.aspx?NewsID=28933

  66. sumakani Says:

    Entire episode is blown out of proportion. And for your information, Mr.Bomma, that the people from RS who attacked on an Unlicensed pub are from Local non-brahmin boys. This I am telling you because I am from M’lore. The whole episode is the handiwork of, not news reporters, news directors and news creators who have directed the whole bunch of local boys who were shooting the mischief instead of bringing it to the notice of Police in spite of having knowledge of the activity that is going to take place at pub before hand. I am wondering why churmuri has not brought out any more article on recent manhandling of Kerala MLA’s daughter in a local bus at M’lore who was supposedly talking to a youth of other religion. TV9 has already started it’s rhetoric of RS hand in it, whereas the police have found out that it is the work of 4 persons from Kerala and one person from M’lre. Hold your breathe!! all of them were members of CPI(M) from kerala. However, our Minister Mrs.Chowdhary has already given her statement that local GOvt is talibanising in Ktk. All P-sec please be up in arms to write in this blog about the episode on RS.

  67. Ashoka Says:

    I think this whole issue is bullshit. I feel that the Brahmins in all the political parties are conspiring and confusing the so-called lower castes. And i feel that the brahmins are the real problem of India… I personally think they are a totally different race altogether…probably an offshoot of the jews.

    Hence the only way forward for a healthy India is to kick out all the poison spewing..divisive politiking brahmins out of India. Let them join their brothers in Israel.

  68. advaita Says:

    the congress and its pet media blew the mangalore pub thing out of proportions just to malign bjp and get some votes as congress is going to be kicked out of india.truth will be out soon.congressis the sisupalaof mahabharata.after the 99th mistake it will be erased.mark my words.

  69. Vinay Says:

    Ashoka:

    Well, well. I knew that you were a “culture defender” but I never imagined that you had such a hate for Bramins and Jews. I am very surprised that a “Culture Protector” can ever have any hate for Brahmins.

    Well, I guess one never stops learning new things on churumuri…

  70. Prashanth Bhat Says:

    @ Ashoka:

    :), It’s amusing what an ill informed mind can cook up!

  71. Ashoka Says:

    Prashanth Bhat :

    Whats wrong in blaming the brahmins for this mess. From the days of Kings, we have been suffering at the hands of the upper classes. We as the rightful citizens of this country have been denied due to the Brahmins politics. Even today the buerocratic class is dominated by the brahmin community. Please update me if i am wrong.

    Vinay :

    Protecting our culture is the birth right of all Indians, not just the Brahmins. I am surprised you think otherwise.

  72. Vinay Says:

    No, I never said that it is the birth right of only the Brahmins. In fact I don’t believe that this “upper-caste” “lower-caste” stuff is relevant in any way in today’s times.

    But, what surprises me is that you do not accept that the concept of Brahmins being at the top and other castes below, is VERY MUCH PART OF OUR CULTURE. So, if you feel that our culture and heritage needs to be protected, shouldn’t you fight for the caste order to be the same as it always has been, for thousands of years? Brahmins doing the teaching and intellectual work, and Dalits not being allowed any opportunity. Isn’t that how it has always been?

    That is why it surprised me when I saw your Brahmin-hate. As for me, I feel our culture needs no “protection”, as I have been mentioning all along.

  73. Palahalli Says:

    Ashoka/Vinay – Have you guys studied the Caste System in India?

    It would be nice if you could post you’re reading lists wrt Caste.

  74. Prashanth Bhat Says:

    @ Ashoka:

    Well Ashoka, this is one more of those issues where it’s not possible to strike a common ground because arguments on this are led by passion and emotion rather than logic.

    Personally I am a firm believer in the powers of logic and see the fulfilment of mans existence in the pursuit of excellence through logic and reason as my only goal. Under such a scenario I shall put across a few opinions of mine which I feel are necessary to refute what you say.

    It’s the unfortunate outbreak of socialist and communal ideologies that makes us believe that god created men as equals. I do not hink this is true and that men are never equal. There are men who are more equal than others but never equal. Now, this has nothing to do with my race, relegion, colour or background. With this primary notion in my mind may I state that the idea of blaming a particular community for a particular scenario today is baffling. I completely understand what you mean when you talk of the injustice meted out to people by those assumed to be of superior class and their treatment of men and suppression of others liberties completely defies logic and reason. But at the same time you spewing venom at a community for the misgivings of a people of an entirely different generation also defies all sense of reasoning. You must be aware of the old kannada proverb “Yemmege jora bandhre, yethhige bare haakidhru antha”. Now do you seriously think that the bureaucratic brahmins are there to play politics? Isn’t that vastly unsubstantiated? They are a part of bureaucracy because education has been their forte. Through the ages they have evolved to make a living out of learning. They are not skilled in the crafts nor are they good at business. When people pursue their area of expertise, it would be wrong to attribute narrow intentions for the career pursued by one class of people. Don’t you think so?

    This is actually a long drawn out argument and I really do not have the patience to write in detail because this involves a lot of propositions of human evolvement, freedom, theory of justice, natural selection and a whole lot of socio, economic, political and cultural issues to be talked of. I am very respectful of your very straightforward and honest question and have tried to answer in very short what I feel of it and it definitely gives you something to mull over if not a complete picture of my thought.

    In the end I would like to say that what we need is equal opportunities but not at the cost of reducing opportunities for a set of people in order to bring in parity. Well, I feel I have put forward a jumbled up and messy piece here but if you take this discussion forward perhaps we will have more clearer things to talk of.

    Good day.

  75. Simple Says:

    Vinay,

    You turned the tables. Brilliant strategy.

  76. Vinay Says:

    Palahalli:

    Yaakri, examaa? If you are organizing some kind of competition or examination, tell me how much you’re paying in prize money first..

  77. Ashoka Says:

    Vinay/Prashanth Bhat

    I don’t consider myself as an intellectual person. But as a thinking individual I try to uderstand from history. B’coz as the saying goes ‘History repeats itself’.

    I consider India a land of Dravidians. And all others are people who have come from outside and settled down. Hence Aryans,Muslims,Christians are not natives of India. But in case of Christians and Muslims, apart from a few all others are dravidians whose forefathers have converted. Hence they are the origianal inhabitants of the country. I dont differentiate on their relegious preferences. Dravidians belonging to any relegion are the sole contendors of the citizenship of India(by default)

    Brahmins have their roots in Central Europe, and they were welcomed to India as guests. Bcoz of their superior mental capacity, all administrative and ministerial posts were gobbled up (Chanakya,Purnaiya,etc). They ensured that they remain on top of the ladder by adding up the priest job to their portfolio.

    And since then they are instrumental in giving direction to our country, be it the guys i mentioned above, or the narsimha raos, or the current lot who befriend the israeli regime.

    They constantly raise issues and confuse the masses. What difference is there if i am a hindu,muslim or a christian. relegion is personal friends. But these guys use these personal preferences to suit their ends and ensure that their clan remains superior in any permutation.

    Kindly correct me if i am wrong.

  78. kharaharapriya Says:

    Ashoka still believes the Aryan invasion theory :) No wonder we have so many anti-brahminists.
    That too, if you end up in Kongnaadu and you are a brahmin, you are literally screwed. Thanks to karunanidhi and types .

  79. Palahalli Says:

    Ashoka – “Kindly correct me if i am wrong.”

    - You’re study will correct you, if you are wrong. But I suggest you start with a reading of Ambedkar and Narayana Guru. (If you haven’t already read their works/lives)

  80. Prashanth Bhat Says:

    @ Ashoka:

    The explanation that you have given for your beliefs (that precisely is the problem with beliefs as opposed to thoughts which are logically deduced) warrants an answer which is inclusive of notions and significance of geographical boundaries, sense of belonging and a lot others which do not subject itself to a singular understanding across the human race. Therein lies the problem where we speculate, theorise and begin to see the actions of a community or group of people in the narrow view which will suit our emotional needs more than the intellectual counterpart. Under such circumstances, I deem it fit to ask you a few questions and perhaps in your quest to find them out or think about it, you might stumble upon finer truths.

    i) I do not intend to debate on the basis of language used in your post because I feel I understand what you mean to convey. Nevertheless, when you suggest somebody to be the original contenders for citizenship, how do you arrive at such a conclusion? I suggest you try to look at this from a larger viewpoint where an individual today is in a particular region because his forefathers migrated 2000 years ago. Are you going to deny citizenship because of that? Or if he went back to his place of origin and if there were people who dint believe that his forefathers were from here and had similar notions of bondaries as you possess, would the fellow belong to nowhere on this earth? ( I am not subscribing to the theory of aryan invasion or anything else here but just asking some questions which i feel needs to be answered before making dramatic conclusions that I feel you have made)

    ii) Let’s ask ourselves who are we? Without resorting to finding answer for this in philosophy or science (primarily because it becomes a debate again and for the sake of simplicity we shall not resort to either of them), if we were to assume that we do not know the answer simply because there are so many plausible explanations to it, why do we have such biases towards our own race, be it in any part of the world? The problem lies in humans in a group being largely prejudiced and developing opinions which suit their emotional and physical needs. So we are all in a conflict zone where we can never see anything beyond our own immediate surrounding. So can you ask yourself if you are just creating explanations to soothe your current dilemma or if you are able to really see history in its right perspective.

    I do not know what I should say about all this because most of the arguments on blogs happen on the basis of personal opinions and biases. Reasoning is often contorted to suit our personal agendas and the beauty of this nature is that it lends itself to such verbal sorcery. I suggest you start with a clean slate and look at history impartially without relenting to view it as a solution to the current state of affairs. You will understand in that consciousness that chronological events happen due to a lot of easons other than that of just asserting supremacy and that they are dictated by a lot of other factors. If the history of our modern times were to be penned years later it would be drastically different from that of our 2000 years of the past.

    I have always enjoyed reading and re-reading this often criticized volumes by Dr. Will Durrant and Dr. Ariel Durrant called “The story of Civilization”. It chronicles history in a very lucid and impartial manner and makes for fine reading. I would glad to lend it to you if you are in banagalore.

    Lot of jumbled up thoughts again. Rethink your stands.

    Regards.

  81. Prashanth Bhat Says:

    @ Ashoka:

    By the way it’s a 11 volume work of close to 20000 pages of literature.

  82. Bunt Hero Says:

    what about the muslim men/boys trapping hindu/christian/sikh girls in love chakkar later to convert to islam?how cowardly act?huh?
    http://www.hinduunity.com/bewaregirls.htm
    it happened few weeks back when some byaari muslim boy trapped a nursing student malyali hindu girl from muvattupuzha(cochin) to convert to islam in mangalore.this is sick!already ,pakistani,arab,pashtun muslims are doing the same in britain,usa and europe.save india!
    http://hinduunity.com

  83. Ashoka Says:

    Prashanth Bhat

    You do not appreciate my reaching back to History for understanding today’s problems. But does that not blur the Hindutva concept of India for Hindus, or whatever. As you suggest if we look at the larger picture, you cannot relate to anybody as the original inhabitants. Be it the Red Indians Of US, or the Bushmen of Australia, or the Dravidians of the sub continent.

    In such circumstances we cannot dictate or protect our identity. It will be free for all.

    I fail to understand the posts from Mukherjee, Palahalli,Vinay or yourself. Too much of contradiction. Either we say:

    1. India is only for Hindus – In that case what happens to Xians and muslims,etc… Do we drive them out. And then what about our caste structure. Will we be ruled by the Brahmins. Does this line ensure that the brahmins remain in the drivers seat forever.

    2. India is for dravidians – Here all the dravidians irrespective of relegion are given prominance. Thus enduring all the members of the society enjoy equality. Relegion or caste or colour does not have any prominance. Even the upper caste can be in the mainstream, subject to the fact that they do not look down on others.

    I am of the opinion we are a multi cultured society. And now I certainly want to preserve this society. Thie multi diversity is our strength. And we should protect it from the divisive forces. They are now desperate, even to the extent of breaking our country, to remain in power.

    I hope I dont come across as an emotional fool. Well so be it.

  84. Ashoka Says:

    Well so be it

  85. Palahalli Says:

    Ashoka – Who gave you the idea that India is only for the Hindus? Which book or study are you referring to?

    Yes. Authoritatively, there was one gentleman who wanted India for Hindus. Can you name him?

    What is you’re definition of “Dravidian”? How do you separate your assertion of;

    “India is for Dravidians”

    with

    “Religion or caste or color does not have any prominence.”?

    Omnipresent “Brahmin Rule” again. Can I ask you to prove this assertion please?

  86. Indian Says:

    Brahmins surely would be surprised to hear that they still hold sway in India. Perhaps a few Brahmins as teachers, ministers, purohits, and village accountants did in Vedic India. Most of today’s Brahmins are so in name only, not knowing Sanskrit, not leading a ritualistic life, happily eating and even cohabiting with members of the so-called lower castes.

    India for Indians, India for Hindus, etc. There can be no rational debate about either of the topics. Indianism is not a native concept, and that is the reason for our not being able to define ourselves as Indians except for practical purposes like getting a passport or being eligible to vote.

    Hindus are not troubled by the presence of followers of other religions in their country. Composing a solid 82% of the population, they don’t have to be. The troubled ones are mostly those who sympathise with the RSS, VHP, and, yes, the BJP.

    In many ways the unhappy situation of the Muslims in the country is self-inflicted. They practice self-segregation unlike the Christians who have Hinduized themselves in many ways–having names deriving from Sanskrit is one of them. The women don’t mind wearing the bindi, unless they are recently converted fundamentalists. There are for them no prescribed ways of dressing or approved hairstyles in the Indian context.

    In Karnataka at least, Muslims unwittingly become objects of unenlightened Hindus’ hatred because the Muslims do not speak Kannada–most of them at least, thus unleashing an old animosity against non-Dravidian speech.

    The burkha leads to the unconscious suspicion of hiding something, the Muslim men’s traditional attire reminds quite a few of Hindus of a period of history when their cultural hegemony began to disintegrate.

    The politicians try to have it both ways by talking about Hindu tolerance and the putative “unity in diversity” concept borrowed from America. If Hindus were indeed the tolerant kind they are said to be, there would be no religious warfare in the country now.

    Hindus’ suspicion makes the Muslims uncomfortable in their own country. Sixty years after independence, and we still do not have a Muslim commanding any of our armed forces. A Muslim can have the ceremonial position of president, but not of the prime minister in whose hands resides all executive power.

    Hindu hatred of Pakistan finds a convenient outlet in discriminating against Indian Muslims.

    India being an unenlightened country, Indianisation or nativisation is a small price for Muslims to pay to ensure their own safety and prosperity in India. The first step perhaps is to agree to relinquish a special legal code for Muslims. They perhaps need to tone down their Turkish and Arabic cultural affiliations as well. I must confess I have no idea how all this can be accomplished, but I do know that these ideas will not receive much consideration in the general Muslim community.

    I have an even more unrealistic idea. Instead of speaking of freedom “of” religion, we should promote freedom “from” religion. If we start now, we might get somewhere in fifty years. In considering such measures, let us also be mindful that in the current geopolitical situation no country can make unilateral decisions about its destiny except the United States.

  87. Vinay Says:

    The “Indian” above speaks sense. I like his way of putting things. Nice piece – balanced, rational, recognizes all sides of the debate – nice.

    Wish more people were like this “Indian”.

  88. Palahalli Says:

    The “Indian” post is a sad read.

    Hindus have become the aggressor and the Muslim, the aggressed?

    And further, this commenter wants Muslims to “surrender” to the Hindu when awhile back, he praised the Christian for just such “encompassing’ behavior?

    I have one message for the Muslim; please stay away from such “well wishers”!

    At least the Hindu will speak straight.

  89. Indian Says:

    Thank you, Vinay.

  90. Vinay Says:

    “Instead of speaking of freedom “of” religion, we should promote freedom “from” religion. ”

    That is what we need. Religion has caused more deaths, more wars, more suffering, more misery and more terror than any other factor in the history of mankind, going back thousands of years.

    I am NOT for a Stalin-Mao type of forced suppression and detention of all followers of religion. You cannot, and should not, prevent people from worshipping their gods. But the state must free itself of religion and religious overtones. India is a ‘secular’ state only on paper. Indians think that secularism means giving equal importance to all religions. Actually, secularism means, “no importance to any religion”. Religion is a ‘private affair’.

  91. Palahalli Says:

    “Instead of speaking of freedom “of” religion, we should promote freedom “from” religion. ”

    - How does one “promote” such an “ideal” without suppression in any form or manner? It’s willfully misleading our people.

    It is more than criminal to push such an agenda in our country where people are deeply religious.

    This is the reason why one cannot trust a “Secular State”. It ends up becoming an enemy to its own people.

  92. Pulikeshi the last Says:

    Historically, there was never a time when all of India was Hindu because no monolithic entitiy called Hindustan existed. Even today, in the tribal areas of the Northeast we have citizens who do not give a damn about what country they are citizens of and are doing well enough by their standards. Thank you.

    The Muslim depradation of India started in the tenth century and by the end of the seventeenth century, the long Muslim corridor between what is now Pakistan and Bangladesh was a fact. Hinduism survived.

    The Lusitanians and the French started looking for safe havens in the land of the heathens and managed to establish a few colonies. The Christianity they brought with them was not turn the other cheek kind, but inquisitional. Hinduism survived.

    After deposing the last Mogul emperor, the British took over. They were careful not to allow Christian missionaries to come to India to prosylitise until it got so that the government could not alone attend to the armies of the sick and uneducated among the colonial victims in the last quarter of the nineteenth century. The missionaries established their dioceses and sold the religion mostly to the poor and uneducated in the Presidencies, with our Father of the Nation turning a blind eye to this divisive strategy. In a society that had neither the means nor the sympathy needed to care for its deracinated, it would not have been difficult to round up Hindus and make them accept a new savior. Gandhi “popularised” volunteerism. The missionaries practiced it and filled their cathedrals and churches. Still Hinduism survived.

    In our megachurch times, missionaries of all stripes, dedicated to bring to sweet Jesus a billion Hindu souls (see, they don’t want to touch any Muslim souls) are involved in a battle with the Ambedkar brand of Budhism as the first stage of their unholy campaign. Their error is that they are not capable of understanding that India is not like the African countries where they could tell the locals that they had no books, God’s word is in the Bible and hence reading the Bible even in a translated version could save their souls. No such luck in India where a four thousand years literacy tradition–it is true that the downtrodden were mercilessly kept outside the tradition–exists, boosted by an ecumenical Hindu psychic infrastructure that would not even consider other religions as its challengers. Still Hinduism survived.

    We don’t owe this extraordinary survival to any seers or politicians, not Ramakrishna, Vivekananda or the Marathi fundamentalists. There is something in the religion that offers its followers, free of any prescribed ways of worship, a contentment they can find in no other religion. One can be a Hindu without saying or knowing he is one. This is the single most important factor in the survival of Hinduism, even when we take into account its extraoridnarily brutal aspects. In short the Abrahmic faiths have no chance of converting more than a fraction of a fraction of Hindus in India. It is not too far fetched to suggest that conversions mostly occur in the context of matrimony.

    And then there is the politics of Dalitism–to escape the unbearable status conferred by birth and still clinging to the idea of birth as a Kamadhenu-like determinant of what kind of life one leads. There must be very few neo-Christians who have not taken advantage of their birth conditions just like neo-Buddhists to live an entitled life without actually putting forth the effort needed to be self-respecting. We have now that all-embracing, chilling choori of jaathinindane charge that has sent many people into needless, nightmarish expensive legal battles. (The police inspector who registers a jaatinindane charge can expect to earn fifty thousand rupees for arranging a magical disappearance of the charge.) Here is a rare phenomenon where the minority is handed the power to tyrannise the majority. Furthermore, a convert receives litte respect from those who converted him once he has renounced his Hindu affiliations. Dalit Christian is a contradiction in terms just like the phrase Brahmin Catholics.

    Budhism, Islam, and Christianity are highly regimented faiths, making impossible demands of their followers, such as requiring that they change their traditional dietary habits, learn a new religious lingo, etc., activities that make the lives of converts less satisfactory than it was before. Additionally, they are charged with bringing more folks into their new faith, making every convert a missionary. I am not at all saying that those who feel wounded by Hinduism should remain Hindus, but that many of them are manipulated by unscrupulous hawkers of alien religions. Creating paranoia as a means of winning converts has become their modus operandi. Look at all the Christian enclaves on the outskirts of Bengaluru, preventing their inhabitants from becoming members of the larger Indian community. The pandiths, padres, pastors, and mullahs better start finding common ground with the larger community if they really believe their gods are forgiving,responsible for their creatures’ well being, and all-accepting.
    Hindus better stop crying that their religion is endangered. It is a damn lie. The saffronites’ loudest and most destructive supporters are generally unemployed, poorly educated youth and Hinduism is not going to save them from starvation after the marches and the bandhs are over. (The same is true of KRV’s hired hoards of hungry horaatagaarau.) Instead of allowing themselves to be used by cynical Hindu hounds, the youth might want to be clear eyed about the chauvinists and appeasers who would keep them in bondage forever.

    Education, education, and still more education.

  93. Goldstar Says:

    Ashoka,

    So much for your ‘India for Dravidians’ slogan:

    Try reading a book, reviewed here: http://www.flonnet.com/fl2223/stories/20051118000407000.htm

    Will give you an idea of how Dalits are treated in your favourite Dravidistan of Tamil Nadu.

    Just google “Dalit Atrocities Tamil Nadu” and check the results and the articles. Open your eyes to the FACT that the two leading dravidian anti-brahmin parties of TN are the worst offenders. As you know, Brahmins are nowhere in the political picture in TN.

    Again, my advice is READ and READ more to know about Dravidian politics.

  94. Palahalli Says:

    Pulikeshi the last – Sir, then is it “go back to sleep” time for the Hindu?

    How will you account for Hindus lost to predators and for Hindu lands lost to aggressors?

    How does you’re bed-time story, comfort Hindu refugees in India (??)

    Maybe “Hinduism” is all in the mind?

    I’m sure you are aware that in each of you’re “Hinduism survived” pieces, Hindus have fought back in various ways. Even the Mahatma waged his battle against Christian conversions.

    It is wrong to abuse Hindus who recognize dangers and alert (educate, educate and still educate!) their fellow Hindus of this danger.

  95. Ashoka Says:

    Goldstar

    Nobody is perfect. But atleast we are being represented in TN.
    And hopefully all over India in the near future.

    I wish the upper caste realises it cannot continue its untouchability culture. The faster they learn the better for them.

  96. Palahalli Says:

    “But atleast we are being represented in TN.” – Who’s “we”? Are Dalits included in this “we”?

    “I wish the upper caste realises it cannot continue its untouchability culture.” – Who are the “upper castes” here?

    Ashoka, it’s time you studied the issues before commenting. Or ask questions.

    At least we’ll be spared of such posts.

  97. Goldstar Says:

    Ashoka,

    I am happy that you have started to understand some of the issues.

    Read more from the CounterCurrents site:

    http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-nagaraj230805.htm

    (this is a review of the book : “Dalits in Dravidian Land”. The ‘He’ below refers to the author of the Book, S. Viswananathan of The Frontline).

    Excerpts:
    He recognises the fact that the `caste Hindus’ who are often in the forefront of violence against Dalits — like sections of Thevars in southern Tamil Nadu and Vanniars in the northern regions — hardly belong to the ruling classes and have only a marginally higher socio-economic status than Dalits.

    —-

    The title of the book, `Dalits in Dravidian Land,’ as well as large parts of the introduction seem to indicate that the Dravidian movement and the Dravidian parties have to share a large part of the blame for the situation of the Dalits in the State today. The Dravidian parties certainly have a lot to answer for in this regard: the articles clearly chronicle the fact that violence by state organs was a regular feature all through the rule of these two parties in Tamil Nadu
    ————————————–++++++

    The worst offenders are Thevars and Vanniars… Upper Caste ?? Brahmins??

  98. Ashoka Says:

    Dear Palahalli

    TN is just one state of India. Dalits have been neglected all over India since decades. I was replying to Goldstars comments, hence request you to kindly read my post in that context.

    Hope Im clear.

  99. Palahalli Says:

    Ashoka – Precisely.

  100. CurryHurry Says:

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=India&id=4564d4ad-4290-4163-a2e7-0aaf0de26557&Headline=Rape+victim+converts+to+Islam+to+marry+accused

    Not a pip squeak from the protectors/protestors.

  101. Palahalli Says:

    CurryHurry – Strange case. I’m not sure what kind of noises you think should have been made based on this report.

  102. Raghu Says:

    Since Churumuri is Mysore centric I thought this news too would be covered : http://mangalorean.com/news.php?newstype=broadcast&broadcastid=118985

    And then I realized that this place of worship belongs to majority community and doesn’t deserve progressives’ attention..

  103. sisya Says:

    >>”Religion has caused more deaths, more wars, more suffering, more misery and more terror than any other factor in the history of mankind, going back thousands of years.”

    Again, do you just make these up as you go or do you have facts to back them up? And while you’re at it, mind spelling out to us which religion(s) you’re talking about? And which wars and suffering you’re talking about that let’s say, Hinduism or Buddhism or Jainism has caused?

    And talking of manufactured facts, here’s one for you to chew on — all the violence in the world is caused by meat-eaters. All terrorists – whether konga ltte types or mullahs are meat-eaters. So let’s get rid of all slaughter-houses first.

    And yes, I made this up. Now, prove me wrong. huh.

  104. Palahalli Says:

    sisya – Rest assured these esteemed “rationalists” will fail to provide a rational response to your questions.

    Their “all religions are equal” fad/cult/creed/what have you…is forcing them to think of Indic paths as in the same league as Abrahamic faiths.

  105. Ramesh Says:

    Hindu-haters (read Brahmin haters) have no use for facts and figures. Nor do they care to produce facts and figures in support of whatever comes out of their pea-sized brains. These morons would have come across scores of people in their lives. Through their miserable eyes they would have seen events unfolding every minute. They don’t want to believe what they have seen or heard. They have no interest in their own experiences of dealing with other humans. That, constitution, courts, police, law-enforcement machinery, etc exist is irrelevant to them. But what they are extremely interested in is something called “manusmriti” compiled in some unknown century. They will go on, and on and on about manu’s prescription on various issues, in particular about the necessity “to pour molten lead or oil into the ears” of some xxx person, if he had overheard the “Vedas” being recited. Not even for a minute will these morons think whether it has ever been done in the past one thousand years. They would not pause to even think whether they had ever witnessed a “molten lead pouring” incident in the fifty-sixty years of their lives, nor would they have asked anyone whether they in turn had witnessed such an incident.

    Now, let us seriously consider whether it is at all possible to indulge in a “molten lead pouring” activity.

    Is lead so cheap and so easily available that anyone can go and procure it? With a melting point of 327° C and boiling point 1755° C, can it be melted so easily? Are all “vedapathashalas” keeping a furnace burning perpetually to keep lead in a perpetual state of liquid form? And, how much lead can be poured into a person’s ears?

    But the beauty of the whole thing is that it requires a “King” to order “molten lead or oil or some other chemical” to be poured into the ears of some xxx person. For that, first we would have to appoint a King who in turn will have to appoint lakhs of people to keep track of all those supposedly not entitled to hear the “Vedas”. Appointing a King would necessarily require overthrowing the constitution, the elected governments and defeating the army and other security forces. Can all this be done? No. No. No.

    There are several other important facts that we must consider. In several states, “vedapathashalas” based on reservation, admit students (for priestly jobs) who are allegedly not supposed to hear the “Vedas”. Have we heard that any attempt has even been made to pour “molten lead” into their ears? If we are believe these Hindu-hating morons and imbeciles, it would seem that the Govt is actually setting up a situation for conducting the “lead pouring” activity!!! Certainly, such an activity would be an act of unparalleled cruelty!!!

    The other fact is that many “pundits” openly through the medium of television not only chant the “Vedas” but also explain their meanings. Their preachings/tutorials are available to the people at large. Does this activity not contradict “manu’s” alleged prescription?

    Another fact is, in most temples all human beings are allowed entry. They not only witness the rituals but also get to hear the “mantras/slokas” being chanted by the priests and others who know them. Have we heard or seen the “lead pouring activity” take place. Has anyone even suggested such a thing? The answer is an emphatic NO.

    But all such evidences are useless for the Hindu-haters.

    That is why we must necessarily conclude that those who quote the “molten lead must be poured” stuff are either mentally-retarded morons or suffering from dangerous levels of genocidal malice and self-cultivated hatred.

  106. Palahalli Says:

    Ramesh, sound logic. Good but don’t wait for a response by these secularists aka anti-Hindus. You won’t get one.

  107. Ashoka Says:

    @Sisya

    “And talking of manufactured facts, here’s one for you to chew on — all the violence in the world is caused by meat-eaters. All terrorists – whether konga ltte types or mullahs are meat-eaters. So let’s get rid of all slaughter-houses first. ”

    I am a soft spoken, peace loving, meat eating dravidian. Please do not discriminate anyone by his eating habits.

  108. bobertkulkarni Says:

    anyone who wants to have drinks are cordially invited to mumbai. You can have as much of drinks as you like and we Maharashtrians will make another penny while serving you lots of drinks. By the way Marathis are Aryans and are much Superior than any other non sanskrit derived language speaking guys.

  109. People drain Says:

    Veernari’s like Sakshi, very easily can give lectures on humanity, women’s rights calling themselves liberals and modernists as they have swallowed Western behaviour till the hilt. Their education acts as their powerful weapon in making “lawyer” arguments to make people who genuinely respect Indian/Hindu tradition look like bigoted idiots. People like Vinay who are the male versions of such women recite the same lines as they are the primary beneficiaries of female promiscuity.

    Unfortunately, these women who rant out about “injustice to women” , after converted to Islam, totally shut up and go silent. Thus making it a one-way traffic. Especially the most educated women draining into Islamic community further weakens the high-caste (middle class) Hindu community. That can do maximum damage to the Hindus than anything else. Ram sena might be goons and bigots, but the result of their actions in this case needn’t necessarily be “evil” as alleged.

  110. Freewill Says:

    This is Indian culture. We need to preserve our heritage. Our culture involves keeping women in ghongat, which is more or less burkha.

  111. Vinay Says:

    People drain:

    Looks like you are jealous of the fact that I am the “primary beneficiary of female promiscuity”. What’s the matter – are you too ugly to be a “beneficiary”? Maybe you have always been a loser in life, and craved for female company, which you never got.

    You display classic symptoms of such a person. Hide behind the cloak of “protect Hinduism” to cover up your own inadequacy and ugliness. Pitiable. Where did the whole “Islam” bullshit come up in this discussion anyway? How is it even related to what is being spoken of here?

  112. harkol Says:

    Well they have done it again. Gone and trashed and molested girls just participating in a Birthday Party in Mangalore.

    These guys are not just a nuisence, they are a menace to society. If they think they can take in a camera in to someones home (or homestay) and trash anyone, even if they are guilty – they need to be taught a lesson by being prisoned for a long long time.

    Question: Would that happen? Would the girls who were assaulted carry thru with an legal action? If my daughter was assaulted, I’d have pursued it till Supreme court, till the guilty were in jail for atleast couple of years.

  113. ravish Says:

    Looks like everyone knows about Vinay.
    He is getting widespread popularity in this unique way.
    will he leak his facebook profile is the big question?

    @harkol
    “If my daughter was assaulted, I’d have pursued it till Supreme court…”

    how caring! such fathers would also take care that daughters never get into trouble.
    all fathers should learn from harkol. if fathers are correct automatically their daughters will not get into trouble from anyone be it vinay or muthalik.

  114. Vinay Says:

    Harkol:

    And all the men in this case were Hindu. Idiots like “people drain” and others keep saying that it is all about “conversions”, “Islam”, etc. The fact that these scum go about their molestation and groping even when all the men are Hindu, clearly shows that there is no element of religion involved here – it is just a bunch of lowlifes who need to be clobbered on their heads.

    Mangalore and South Canara is going to the dogs, with religious fundamentalism of this kind.

  115. harkol Says:

    Ravish:
    >such fathers would also take care that daughters never get into trouble.

    That I can’t be sure. They are too young for now, but when they are older (post PUC) they’d make their own choice. And may get in to trouble due to choices they make.

    They may choose sleep with someone – even purely for pleasure – it ‘d be their choice. If they choose to go partying late in night, it is their choice.

    I’d of course advice them against such choices, would counsel them against it, but won’t banish them or give up on them as lost cause or force them to do it ‘my way’.

    So, what I meant was – if they did get in to trouble because of their choices, I would be solidly stand behind them in facing the consequences of their choices.

    If someone took advantage of them, I’ll be with them in their fight.

    Just because my daughters are free to decide what they do, and would live a life of their choice – it doesn’t provide any thug a license to barge in, beat them up and fondle their breasts like Mangalore thugs did!!

    The guys who do so – should be made to pay.

  116. Vinay Says:

    ravish:

    You need to realize that a sense of mental retardation oozes out of your posts, and you just cannot hide that – it is immediately obvious that you are the same bitter 50-year old senile man who used to comment here under dozens of names like “kaadu manushya”, “arivu”, “kkk”, and so on.

    Changing your name will not hide your innate cantankerous and senile nature – you might as well give up.

  117. Vinay Says:

    And ravish: it is difficult for fathers like Harkol to take care of their daughters when senile old men like you are on the loose, waiting for a chance to grope the next girl half your age. Tough job for parents like him. :(

  118. ravish Says:

    @harkol
    “I’d of course advice them against such choices, would counsel them against it,”

    exactly that’s the need of the hour.

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