The curious case of Zakir Naik & Shekhar Gupta

The gentleman on the right of the frame wants India to be ruled by Shariat laws. He recommends death for homosexuals. He supports Osama bin Laden if he is “fighting the enemies of Islam”. He says revealing clothes make women more susceptible to rape.

Yet, the gentleman on the left, Shekhar Gupta, introduced him as the “rockstar of tele-evangelism” in March 2009, on his NDTV show Walk the Talk:

“…but surprise of surprises, he is not preaching what you would expect tele-evangelists to preach. He is preaching Islam, modern Islam, and not just Islam but his own interpretation of all the faiths around the world.”

In February this year, the paper edited by the gentleman on the left, the Indian Express, ranked the gentleman on the right 89th on its list of the most powerful Indians in 2010 (jury: unknown), ahead of  Nobel laureate Amartya Sen, with large numbers dripping all over:

“His sermons on Peace TV-English boast of a viewership of 100 million. The channel is aired in 125 countries. Peace TV Urdu has 50 million viewers. He has given 1,300 public talks including 100 in 2009, 10-day peace conference attened by 2 lakh…”

Now, with the British government announcing that the gentleman of such affection—the gentleman on the right, Dr Zakir Naik—will not be allowed into Britain because of numerous comments that are evidence of “unacceptable behaviour”, the journalist-author Sadanand Dhume writes in The Wall Street Journal:

“If you’re looking for a snapshot of India’s hapless response to radical Islam, then look no further than Naik. In India, the 44-year-old Dr. Naik—a medical doctor by training and a televangelist by vocation—is a widely respected figure, feted by newspapers and gushed over by television anchors….

“When the doctor appears on a mainstream Indian news channel, his interviewers tend to be deferential. Senior journalist and presenter Shekhar Gupta breathlessly introduced his guest last year as a “rock star of televangelism” who teaches “modern Islam” and “his own interpretation of all the faiths around the world.”

“A handful of journalists—among them Praveen Swami of The Hindu, and the grand old man of Indian letters, Khushwant Singh—have questioned Dr. Naik’s views, but most take his carefully crafted image of moderation at face value.”

But the Indian Express is, if nothing else, extremely touchy when its judgments are questioned.

With Dhume’s article doing the rounds, it has run an editorial in response to the British decision, curiously titled “Talk is Cheap”:

“By disallowing Zakir Naik from delivering his lecture in Birmingham, Britain has simply made him a cause and handed him a megaphone, ensuring that his voice is amplified on blogs, social networks and other forums where disenfranchised and angry Muslims gather.

“This is not to say that Naik’s televangelism is not entirely free of objectionable or sometimes plain ridiculous content…. Naik is simply one corner in a larger field, and his ideas have been debated, endorsed or demolished, as the case may be, on very public platforms…. Words must be fought with words alone, not clumsy state action.

“Zakir Naik talks of ideas that some might abhor, but some others take all too seriously. Not permitting open discourse is to constrict the free play of disagreeement and disputation.”

Photograph: courtesy NDTV 24×7

Read the full column: The trouble with Dr Zakir Naik

Follow Sadanand Dhume on Twitter

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61 Responses to “The curious case of Zakir Naik & Shekhar Gupta”

  1. dharma Says:

    NDTV always speaks for the Congress party.

  2. Vinay Says:

    This guy, Zakir Naik, is a closet Jihadist. Deserves to be placed under house arrest.

  3. Abhi Says:

    Are these journalists really that stupid? Anyone with simple access to google shouldn’t take more than 5 mins to figure out that what a nutjob is this guy. It is widely accepted that Indian journalists are stupid, but this guy, Shekhar Gupta is stunningly stupid.

    Personally, If I were to be a Muslim in these times, I would keep quite. Unless you are living under a rock, you know it’s miles ahead of other religions when it comes to stupidity and intolerance. So every time, buffoons like Zakir Naik, Anjem Choudary speak, you know you are in for some serious comedy.

  4. Pagan Says:

    1) What is modern Islam?

    2) Is Zakir Naik being unfaily targeted here? He is merely saying what the book says no?

    3) He wants Sharia in India. Why are you against it? Do you think Sharia is no good? It is god’s law based on holy books. How can they be wrong or bad? India is a democracy and every one is free to voice their opinion right? Brilliant no? Use free speech to demand the abolition of free speech.

    4) Zakir Naik is powerful no? He has the capacity to influence the opinion of millions of Muslims. How long before we see demonstrations demanding Sharia across India?

    5) Dhume tells us about India’s hapless response to radical Islam. How should it be tackled? Please tell us that also Dhumeji.

    UK – less said the better. Why ban Zakir? Whatever happened to freedom of speech and expression in UK?

  5. M Vijapurkar Says:

    Fourth Estate, Fifth Column – many such instances can be found, I am told but then press (as print media) is under the awe of television.

  6. srisri Says:

    Journo’s like Shekar Gupta, Karan Thapar, Burka Dutt, etc reserve their diatribe and aggressive mentality for the sangh parivar….when it comes to islamofascists like Zakir Naik, they can only purr like a pussy cat and grovel and sing for their supper.

  7. harkol Says:

    Pagan:
    >UK – less said the better. Why ban Zakir? Whatever happened to freedom of speech and expression in UK?

    They haven’t banned Zakir’s speech or writings – they can be openly accessed in UK.

    They have banned his entry, because he is a radicalized muslim. And both US/UK doesn’t permit Radicalized muslims in to their country now.

    Zakir Naik is a nut case. He once argued that non-islamic religious preaching shouldn’t be allowed, because in Khuran it is clearly written it is the whole truth and only truth, where as no other language claims that.

    So his argument was “why teach 2+2 = 5″, when Khuran accurately says it is 4!

    That’s him. A nut case – Reducing a science of logic that is maths – to a matter of faith that is theology.

    At other times he is downright dangerous. But, he is no more dangerous than so many muslim preachers in India (or for that matter people like Mutalik). The difference perhaps is there are more unsatisifed Muslims to listen to the rants of this nut case than, misguided Hindus in case of Mutalik.

    ***

    ———
    Our own Mr. Mr. Ravishankar attended one of the events by Zakir Naik and what came out is certainly not ‘positive thinking’.

    Afterall how can you get positive, if you multiply anything by a negetive?

    I mean, even if you rub crap on sandalwood, the smell won’t go away would it?

    And Mr. Mr. is far from being sandalwood, while Zakir Naik is certainly crap. So, what came out was just that – crap.

  8. Prashanth Bhat Says:

    Wow!, This topic is surely going to bring in the comments flooding.
    By the way, my two cents on the issue.

    Dr. Zakir Naik is an idiot beyond doubt. But then, he should be allowed to speak and write all that he wants to only if he also firmly in action and spirit accepts that everybody else on this planet has the right to do so. Like drawing cartoons! I feel offended by his talks because they abuse and wound my logical senses, but my only option out is to not listen to him. I just wish he understands this aspect of liberal speech.

    And for the question of that Shekar Gupta’s interview. I rightfully agree that it’s ridiculous. But than, it is his choice and his show. Let him do what he wants. We will critique if required but lets not demand anything better from him. If anything, Churumuri could perhaps host him for an online chat!

    On UK refusing entry, it’s a wrong move. But I suppose it’s symptomatic of the growing myopic response of all countries towards changing times.

  9. Anonymous Guy Says:

    IE editorial has a point – fanatics needs to be countered, not made into martyrs.

    As to fawning over anyone who has influence over a number of people, even if their aims are criminal – that is the Indian way. Just take a look at the number of criminal/non-civil minded among our famous politicians, actors, religious figures, cricketers, businessmen and other leaders.

    Tangentially related – NY Times piece on a controversial play in Pakistan:

    “For some, “Burqavaganza” is a funny love story in the time of jihad. For others, it mocks Islam. The government’s recent ban on the play highlights Pakistan’s liberal-conservative divide.”

    Check out the video:
    http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/burqavaganza/

  10. mysore peshva Says:

    Zakir Naik’s proselytization is insidious. He uses India’s liberal democracy to espouse a cause that would destroy that very democracy!

  11. rk Says:

    Pagan, your comments made me say something here for the first time I think! Sharia law is based on holy books but it’s only Islam’s holy book. As for what is wrong with Sharia law, I don’t know where to begin! It’s always biased against women and their fundamental rights. People like Zakir Naik and other fundamentalists (hiding under the veil of freedom of speech and preaching terror!) want to use India’s secularism to spread their message. Indian politicians and some journalists are stupid to let them since we will be bitten so badly we won’t know what hit us in just a few years! I would love to know what rights other religious leaders have in Islamic states! Hindus can’t even practice their religion freely in most Islamic countries, yet Muslims want to use their freedom of right to the maximum extent and spread their hatred and intolerance! I will stop here since not enough can be said in this forum about people like you that think we should hand over India to Islam and its Sharia laws!!!!

  12. Somebody Says:

    There is nothing inside and outside of the head of this crazy man called Shekhar Gupta.

  13. Khan Says:

    Churmuri you disappoint me!!!

    Where did you copy the selected quotes, without the context. I know, maybe it just flooded the “INTERNETS” as usual seasonal.

    Ok, what is the beef here, Shekar gupta, zakir naik, freedom and democracy-waving of UKistan??

    If going by the comments it is all about zakir naik -oh strike that, Islam bad bad and usual whining. Guess there is no excuse needed for that for the resident cheddi gang.

    ***

    Let me try to understand what exactly Churmuri means by “Curious case of zakir naik and gupta”

    Zakir naik is banned entry to UK is the current news, Is churmuri bringing that here through past unrelated quotes and justifying the same??

    Is churmuri peeved that gupta wrote editorial arguing UK is providing megaphone to Zakir naik by its action, and there are better ways to counter his belief??

    I fail to understand, why churmuri chose sadanad dhume article to berate zakir and gupta, there are countless available. I mean you are comparing gupta and praveen swami as opposite end of journalist views. Praveen swami!! c’mon churmuri don’t fail so bad, even if you have a point to prove against gupta.

    About zakir naik, I have nothing much to say, but I notice his tendency to go overboard sometime. He is afterall most of the time debating, what else do you expect. Hold every word of his as pearls???.

    Get over guys.

  14. Doddi Buddi Says:

    I think the real fun begins when Western governments start banning the likes of ‘Walk-the-Bullshit-Talk’ Guptaji and ‘Gandhian-Maoist’ A Roy for peddling the soft line of idiots like Naik and numerous Leftie luminaries. Oh I am sure that will hurt their ego very badly. It is one thing to peddle outrageous behavior under meaningless limitless freedom of speech in India because we take it lying down but if there is no chance of peddling the same to a ‘critical’ Western audience, then very soon Guptaji and Roy will change their views in a heartbeat!:)

  15. Vinay Says:

    The Khans and Kingkhans of churumuri should show up when such articles are written and clearly denounce Zakir Naik types from their end in addition to their usual comments on caste, Brahmins, Bajrang Dal, Cheddis, etc.

    Failure to do so only reinforces the opinion that more and more Indians carry nowadays, which is, Muslim society in India also supports and stands with Zakir Naik types.

  16. DailyBread Says:

    @Somebody
    >There is nothing inside and outside of the head of this crazy man called Shekhar Gupta.

    Sir, be very careful, in today’s India he is the most powerful man. If you dont believe me, you can ask any of the Prime time padma anchors. BTW, he is a padma vibhushan…..

  17. Vinay Says:

    Ah, looked like I typed too soon – our Khan is here!

    Khan, forget Zakir Naik for a moment, tell me your personal views on the following:

    Should India have Sharia laws?
    Should Gays be allowed to exist?
    Do women who wear Western clothing deserve to get raped?
    What should be the treatment of apostates?

  18. Pagan Says:

    harkol,

    “They have banned his entry, because he is a radicalized muslim. And both US/UK doesn’t permit Radicalized muslims in to their country now.”

    hmm..maybe they no longer allow radicalized Muslims into their country because they are now homegrown? No need to import.

    “He once argued that non-islamic religious preaching shouldn’t be allowed, because in Khuran it is clearly written it is the whole truth and only truth”

    Zakir Naik knows Quran in and out. Are you saying he is wrong about above statement and you know Quran better than him?

  19. Somebody Says:

    Dailybread, Thanks. I withdraw my opinion. Honourable Padmavibhushan Shekhar Gupta is a genius!

  20. Khan Says:

    Let me try to understand what exactly Churmuri means by “Curious case of zakir naik and gupta”

    Zakir naik is banned entry to UK is the current news, Is churmuri bringing that here through past unrelated quotes and justifying the same??

    Is churmuri peeved that gupta wrote editorial arguing UK is providing megaphone to Zakir naik by its action, and there are better ways to counter his belief??

    I fail to understand, why churmuri chose sadanad dhume article to berate zakir and gupta, there are countless available. I mean you are comparing gupta and praveen swami as opposite end of journalist views. Praveen swami!! c’mon churmuri don’t fail so bad, even if you have a point to prove against gupta.

    About zakir naik, I have nothing much to say, but I notice his tendency to go overboard sometime. He is afterall most of the time debating, what else do you expect. Hold every word of his as pearls???.

    Get over guys.

  21. Abhi Says:

    “Get over guys.”
    Khan –

    Agree. There is no point anyone writing paragraphs answering your cribs. Anyway you have one word answer for anyone critical of Islam – Cheddi.

    I don’t think there is any civilized way of talking to anyone sympathetic to Zakir Naik.

  22. srisri Says:

    The latest development is that this joker naik has moved the Bombay HC against the British decision to revoke his visa and refusing him entry into Britain. Talk about Mullah Nautanki.

    BTW, the usual suspect Mahesh Bhatt, whose son accompanied David Coleman Headley and took him on a conducted tour of Mumbai to help him do the reccee for the Mumbai massacre, was with the Joker Naik when he went to file the case. ;)

  23. nidhi Says:

    Mr. Shekar Gupta’s display of horrific journalism had to be met with strong words. Many a times he makes his piece of interviews a subject to loathe. Muthaliks, Togadias, Zakirs are deep in their heart the bloodsucking brethren, the commanders of Satan. Mr.Gupta can make a rock star out of a disgust crap lot.
    Thanks Gupta for upholding the principles of journalism and parading with flying colours!!! mostly green…

  24. Omar Mudassar Says:

    List of Naik’s Blunders:
    On the issue of the theory of evolution, Naik commented that it contradicts Islam since it remains “just a theory and not a fact”. According to Naik, scientists “support the theory, because it went against the Bible – not because it was true.” According to Naik, there are hundreds of scientists and Noble Prize winners who speak against Darwin’s theory.
    Political Analyst Khaled Ahmed argues that, Naik, through his claims of Islam’s superiority over other religious faiths, practices, what he calls reverse Orientalism.

    In 2004, Naik visited New Zealand and then the Australian capital at the invitation of Islamic Information and Services Network of Australasia. At his conference in Melbourne, senior writer and columnist Sushi Das commented that “Naik extolled the moral and spiritual superiority of Islam and lampooned other faiths and the West in general”, further criticizing that Naik’s words “fostered a spirit of separateness and reinforced prejudice”.

    In August 2006, Naik’s visit and conference in Cardiff (UK) were the object of controversy, when Welsh MP David Davies called for his appearance to be cancelled. He argued that Naik as a ‘hate-monger’, and said his views did not deserve a ‘public platform’.

    Khushwant Singh, a prominent Indian journalist, politician and author argues that Naik’s pronouncements are “juvenile” and said that “they seldom rise above the level of undergraduate college debates, where contestants vie with each other to score brownie points”.
    Singh replied to Zakir Naik’s statement that “Western society claims to have uplifted women. On the contrary, it has actually degraded them to the status of concubines, mistresses, and society butterflies who are mere tools in the hands of pleasure seekers and sex marketers….” by saying “Dr. Naik, you know next to nothing about the Western society and are talking through your skull cap. People like you are making the Muslims lag behind other communities.” Singh also noted that Naik’s audiences “… listen to him with rapt attention and often explode in enthusiastic applause when he rubbishes other religious texts …”
    Lucknow based cleric Kalbe Jawad argued that “Naik is bringing a bad name to Muslims. Such people should be condemned and socially boycotted” and claimed that Naik was being financed by the Wahabi sect that supposedly perpetrates violence in the name of Islam and expressed the need for an inquiry into, how Naik was running a TV channel on his own and where he received the funds from. Another Lucknow cleric Naib Imam Maulana Khalid Rasheed Firangi Mahali claimed that Naik has “mugged up some verses from the Koran and pretends to be an Islamic scholar”.

    Fatwas
    In August 2008, Darul Uloom Deoband issued a fatwa stating: “The statements made by Dr Zakir Naik indicate that he is a preacher of Ghair Muqallidin. One should not rely upon his speeches.”

    The Shariah Board of America has also issued more than 20 fatwas against Naik on their website. They believe Naik has gone astray, as he is not a scholar and issues Islamic teachings without authority or any knowledge to do so, which is dangerous to Islam; “Naik is known for discussions on comparative religions. He is not a qualified Aalim of deen. His comments on fiqh have no merit. If it is true that he condemned the fiqh of the Imams, then that in itself is a clear indication of his lack of fiqh and understanding of Shairah. We have come across a fatwa from Darul Ifta Jamia Binnoria, Pakistan regarding Zakir Naik not being a certified Aalim of Deen. He should consult with Ulama in his endeavor of propagating deen.”

    In November 2008 the Lucknow based cleric Abul Irfan Mian Firangi Mahali issued a fatwa against Naik, describing Naik as a “Kafir” (non-believer) and stating in the fatwa, that Naik should be ex-communicated from Islam. He argued that “Naik is not an Islamic scholar. His teachings are against the Koran. In his speeches, he insults Allah and glorifies Yazeed, the killer of Imam Hussain” and that Naik had supported Laden and called upon all Muslims to become terrorists.

  25. Suresh Syamlal Says:

    I am a child in such matters. But I will give explain my viewpoint with an example.

    There is a famous theorem by a Mathematician Godel. In short it says that
    “Consistent Systems( i.e set of axioms and rules for inference) cannot be Complete”.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_incompleteness_theorems
    Which means that there will statements in such systems which cannot be proved within the system. We as a human being understand that those statements are true in that system but by using rules of inference present within the system we cannot prove the truth/falsity of such statements.

    Now my point is this. Kuran[ or any other holy book] can be considered to be sets of axioms and rules of inference. It is a System. It is supposed to govern human behaviour. In short it is supposed to govern human brains. Since our human brains cannot be modeled by any System [defined as sets of axioms and rules of inference]. This means human understanding/behaviour is beyond any System. Then how can a System (i.e. Kuran) be relied upon to govern a non-System (human being) in a reliable way. There will be situations in which the System (i.e Holy book or Kuran) will not be able to judge truth/falsity (or appropriate/inappropriateness) of a human behaviour. A human brain itself is so complex. Think about how complex the
    interactions between 6 billion human beings will be. Also thrown in the complexity of the environment itself with which we are interacting.

    Considering the above points, I think it will be foolish for human beings to rely on a code of conduct or a holy book for ratifying/validating their behaviour. Because such a book won’t be able to cover all the myriad different interactions in human society.

  26. Curry Hurry Says:

    Zakir Naik is definitely a curious case.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jYUL7eBdHg&feature=related
    Exactly! human rights for them and none for others. :)

  27. Doddi Buddi Says:

    Dear All,

    How about starting a thread on Pearls of Wisdom by Z Naik? Thanks!

  28. harkol Says:

    Prashant Bhat:
    >On UK refusing entry, it’s a wrong move.

    UK is a free society, and Zakir Naiks thoughts or speech isn’t banned. Just his entry is banned – which is not free to non-citizens of UK.

    Every country follows the same set of international law. Entry into a country is at sole discretion of that country’s govt. That’s part of sovereignty.

    Someone can’t say “mano ya na mano – Mein tera mehmaan” ;-)

    ***

    Khan:
    >About zakir naik, I have nothing much to say

    I guess he speaks enough for both of you (And many more) ;-) Yeah, that guy just goes overboard. he is an eccentric motor mouth.

    The only danger in his his speech is, he gives a religious justification to regressive, irrelevant ideas, but he is far from unique in that – There are so many religious preachers who do the same.

    I agree that it is entirely wrong to berate Shekar Gupta, for he is airing the opinions of another Indian. It is no different than an interview of Mutalik and ilk.

    It would’ve been good if press refrained from giving publicity to people with regressive agenda, but then Press is supposed to represent all points of views (even ones that we don’t consider right).

  29. chanakya Says:

    Since Khan is repeating his posts over and over again without answering the questions posed to him by Vinay, lemme try answering them myself:

    Should India have Sharia laws? Slowly but surely, we comprise 30% of the total population of India, let us slowly creep above 50%, which inshallah we will surely do as we like to breed like parasites.

    Should Gays be allowed to exist? They should be killed with a video footage like the one taken in case of Daniel Pearl

    Do women who wear Western clothing deserve to get raped? They surely do. You see, there is a perfect scientific explanation for that. Women wearing western clothes raises the testosterone level of men which they are unable to control. You can’t blame men (especially muslims) for that.

    What should be the treatment of apostates? Do you mean apostates of Islam? As we believe that islam is the way of life and the only path to reach the almighty, it implies that he is an athiest now and deserves no less than death. If possible, I will kill them myself.

  30. Khan Says:

    I see the cheddi gang is full strength, why not?? They seems to have watched too many videos of zakir naik and letting all the frustrations here. Watching his videos and not getting rage by new breed of “internet hindus” is impossible. My sympathy is with them, for a change.

    But what I don’t get is “demand” for condemnation??

    Why should there be? my opinion on Islam is no less than any of zakir naiks or any mullah for that matter. In Islam we don’t have sankrachrya or pope or sri sri quak quack. Everyone is equal equal. So every time I opened my mouth, should it be taken as collective opinion or individual opinion???

    But cheddis do have demands, demand for condemnation of every terrorist activity, demand for patriotism, demand to know who I cheer, pak or india. It is not even funny now, guess every Muslim learned to ignore these bigots by now.

    “internet hindus” being a product of centuries of conditioning & google info, want to let out some steam on the net, am all for it. This is anyway better than a mob on the street.

  31. Vinay Says:

    “Everyone is equal equal.”

    Well, well.. why is it that only certain special ‘more equal than others’ people get the privilege of issuing Fatwas??? Can you, by any chance, issue a Fatwa against this nutcase Zakir Naik for defaming religion? It will do the world a big favour!

  32. Prashanth Bhat Says:

    @Harkol,

    You are right on that. It was my mistake that I didn’t think about that fact that it was only his entry that was banned.

    As far as the rest of Zakir Naik trash, and also for the last comment by Khan with his views on Islam being no different from others and it being a religion of equals, and internet Hindus etc., “We Indians in particular and humanity in general will get nowhere until we realize the debilitating consequences of having religion as out endearing guiding spirit. And add to it, if the religion is prophetic, with emphasis on it being the final and the only word, I think we all stand no chance”

    @Pagan,

    Please do not unearth such videos and post them in the comments here. I couldn’t sleep the whole night thinking of the kind of men I live amongst on this planet.

  33. harkol Says:

    Pagan:

    >Zakir Naik knows Quran in and out. Are you saying he is wrong about above statement and you know Quran better than him?

    I don’t know much about Quran or religions, but what I know is no religion can be absolute or perfect, for it is conceived in a limited brains, with limited imagination.

    THe universe is far too complex, and in fact, some mathematical equations show, we’ll never be able to comprehend the universe in its entirety for we don’t have enough memory or computation power to do so. So, to claim something to be absolute truth is hilarious.

    Especially a document like Quran – which Mohammad ‘said’ is something he ‘heard’ from angel Jibrīl (Gabriel), who ‘told’ him Allah ‘said’ so! And some other folks wrote it down from their memory as to what Mohammad ‘said’ over a period of 40 years to arrive at the current form of Quran. Try writing the exact words of a speech you heard a week back!!

    In reality – any modern court would’ve ruled that the testament in Quran is ‘hearsay’.

    ***


    To add to my previous post: All faiths/religions hold some beliefs to be sacrosanct – Absolute Truth. All of them can’t be correct, and it is beyond anyone to determine which is correct or which is wrong, as it is impossible to prove or disprove the accuracy of these claims.

    It isn’t my intention to dinigrate Quran/islam. But, some followers of Islam (like Naik) are absolutist and sight Quran to be the final word because it is word of god. So, they need to answer if there is any proof that it was indeed the word of god. Mohammad, a man, claimed Gabriel said so. Mohammad himself can’t be sure Gabriel was telling the truth. And no one can be sure that Mohammad a man himself was telling the truth anyway!

    After all, I too can claim God told me something – would it become the ultimate truth??

    ***

    Khan:
    >Cheddis, “internet hindus” etc…

    Interesting innovation of a new classes of people!

    I suppose there are even more such classes of people – ‘Internet Muslims” “Topis” and “beards” etc??

    ;-)

    ***

    Chanakya:
    >we like to breed like parasites.

    The census details prove Muslim growth figure you quoted to be. Indian Muslim population is 13.5% (per last census).

    Muslim proportion in India has indeed grown but only by a marginal 2% from the time of Independence. Some of it is due to influx of Bangla Immigrants in 1970s not because of breeding.

    Coming to breeding – Indians in general have been ‘breeding’ at an alarming rate.. ;-)

  34. Tanveer Says:

    Sorry, a bit late to join in this debate.

    My inputs on Dr.Zakir Naik are that he is an extremely passionate muslim. He is like me of the strongest opinion that Quran is the last Holy book from the Allmighty, and it is the solution for everyone on earth.

    But unlike me, he prefers to confront all and try to assert superiority. Whereas I beleive that the muslims have been entrusted with the responsibility of sharing the message of Allmighty to all mankind, and leave the rest to the individual.

    In fact this is the way Islam has been nurtured since the days of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). A small example would be the decision to impose a very nominal tax called jiziya in the Arab world on non-muslims. This may look very critical at first, but if you think with a clear head, it seems practical. Bcoz the Islamic regime then took upon it not only for safeguarding of the life and property but also of ensuring the safety of their relegious houses and their relegious practices. This was done even to the jews at those times. Whereas the easiest way would have been to convert them by sword.

    By this i mean to imply that Islam is a very broad minded relegion. And i seriously advocate all to read the Quran(translations available in all languages) and determine themselves, rather than forming an opinion which is very carefully being determined by anti Islamites.

  35. Vinay Says:

    The video posted by Pagan is quite old actually – I had seen it long back but without subtitles. Now, when I see it with subtitles, I notice that initially they were limiting it to Denmark, Israel, USA and Europe but some ‘extra-brave’ jems there started off “UK, you will pay, 7/7 is on its way!!”. That takes some foolhardy courage, being in London!!

  36. srisri Says:

    Tanveer,

    >>But unlike me, he prefers to confront all and try to assert superiority. Whereas I beleive that the muslims have been entrusted with the responsibility of sharing the message of Allmighty to all mankind, and leave the rest to the individual.

    In fact this is the way Islam has been nurtured since the days of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). A small example would be the decision to impose a very nominal tax called jiziya in the Arab world on non-muslims. This may look very critical at first, but if you think with a clear head, it seems practical. Bcoz the Islamic regime then took upon it not only for safeguarding of the life and property but also of ensuring the safety of their relegious houses and their relegious practices. This was done even to the jews at those times. Whereas the easiest way would have been to convert them by sword.>>

    Either you are trying to fool us OR you have not read the history of Saudi Arabia after advent of Mohammed/Islam. Either way I will attribute this comment to ‘Al-Taqqiyah’ and move on.

    BTW, did it ever occur to you that there was a third option possible for Mo’s men, LEAVE THE PAGANS ALONE to practice their religion. By extension of your argument, can the hindus of india impose a “small reverse Jaziya” on muslims of india, for protecting their rights of worship and places of worship :)

  37. DailyBread Says:

    @Harkol
    >Coming to breeding – Indians in general have been ‘breeding’ at an alarming rate.. ;-)

    Remittances & outsourcing contracts get us close to a 100 billion dollars per annum. We knew that one day we will be able to encash “demographic dividend” cheques.. ;-)

    Jai santhana laxmi!!

  38. Anonymous Guy Says:

    DB,

    Here’s an incomplete list of the man’s pearls of wisdom:
    http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Rebuttals_to_Zakir_Naik

    Khan,

    Why so defensive about Zakir?

    Tanvir,

    If the Jews loved the jiziya so much, why did they just not pay it and form Israel as a subordinate state to the Arabs? How about proposing that the Palestines pay some reverse jiziya and live in peace? How about the same in Kashmir? Or do only people like Zakir and you have a monopoly over this concept?

  39. Pagan Says:

    Omar Mudassar,

    Thanks for the lenghty, informative comment. If there are so many fatwas against Zakir Naik, why do so many people still attend his public speeches? Are they disrespecting the fatwas? What is the punishment for them? Also, what do all these fatwas say about the punishment for Zakir Naik? I mean for example, fatwa against Salman Rushdie called for his murder.

    “Mahali issued a fatwa against Naik, describing Naik as a “Kafir” (non-believer)”

    Who is a Kafir? Simply a non believer? Is being a non believer degrading & bad (fatwa seems to suggest that)? If so, how is Islam
    a religion of peace and “tolerance”?

    Prashanth Bhat,

    What to do? That is the reality. Let’s see what all happens in UK.

    harkol,

    Agree with you on religion and also on the hearsay part.

    Tanveer,

    WTF.

  40. mysore peshva Says:

    *tanveer sahab*

    your argument does not allow the conclusion that islam is a “very broad minded religion.” if i believed that the human genome was the final word/frontier of science, and imposed a jaziya on all labs that did not accept my work, how broad-minded would i be? to a self-righteous, one-book idiot like you, i’d be “very broad minded” — because at least i didn’t cut up those scientists with a sword! idiot.

    if islam must use logic like yours, i feel sorry for islam.

  41. Pagan Says:

    If Quran is the solution for everyone on this earth, then it has been an epic fail so far.

    OK.. so there are no Shankaracharyas or pope or whatever in Islam right? That means there is no room for different interpretations of Quran right? That means Zakir Naik is right? Every terrorist who blew himself up is right?

  42. harkol Says:

    Advantages of Extremism : http://bit.ly/d75Tl8

    ;-)

  43. chanakya Says:

    Khan:
    >I see the cheddi gang is full strength, why not??

    Hehehe…let’s see who wins, cheddi gang or mullah jihadis?

    >In Islam we don’t have sankrachrya or pope or sri sri quak quack.

    No, you can never ever dream of having the above mentioned people in islam. In Islam, you have Zakir Naik, Afzal Guru, Abdul Nasser Madani, Mullah Omar, Ahmed Bukhari(Delhi shahi imam), Osama Bin Laden…. This list can go on endlessly…

    >But cheddis do have demands, demand for condemnation of every terrorist activity, demand for patriotism, demand to know who I cheer, pak or india. It is not even funny now, guess every Muslim learned to ignore these bigots by now.

    And what is wrong with that? I haven’t seen any of the mullah jehadis doing any of the one mentioned above. Ignoring these questions will only strengthen the belief that your body resides in india and heart in pakistan (or any other mullah jehadi country). Why haven’t we seen any muslims declare a fatwa against the terrorists who attack our country? Because they are concerned more on declaring the fatwas against Taslima Nasreen, Salman Rushdie and people who have no links with India. Traffic in Bangalore comes to a standstill because these mullahs are protesting over the hanging of Saddam Hussain. How the hell does Saddam Hussain concern the average indians?

    Tanveer:
    >In fact this is the way Islam has been nurtured since the days of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). A small example would be the decision to impose a very nominal tax called jiziya in the Arab world on non-muslims. This may look very critical at first, but if you think with a clear head, it seems practical. Bcoz the Islamic regime then took upon it not only for safeguarding of the life and property but also of ensuring the safety of their relegious houses and their relegious practices. This was done even to the jews at those times. Whereas the easiest way would have been to convert them by sword.

    Come on, this is the most stupidiest comment I have heard till date. But what more can be expected from you stupid mullah jihadis?? Going by this comment, the indian government should start collecting jiziya from all the muslims. I don’t think that you or your brother “Khan” will agree to pay jiziya to the indian government, don’t you? Think before you type in your crap…

  44. harkol Says:

    Tanveer:
    >He is like me of the strongest opinion

    And it is my opinion that Quran was Prophet Mohammad’s opinion of what God said to Gabriel.

    “Opinions are like assholes. Everybody’s got one and everyone thinks everyone else’s stinks.” – From Movie ‘Home for the Holidays’

    >Bcoz the Islamic regime then took upon it not only for safeguarding of the life and property but also of ensuring the safety of their relegious houses and their relegious practices.

    Hmm.. Interesting… Like Dawood Ibrahim Giving protection to Builders after collecting his Jiziya?? ;-)

    >Whereas the easiest way would have been to convert them by sword.

    If one thing Historians agree on it is – Both Christianity and Islam converted people by sword.

    ***

    Tanveer:

    >very nominal tax called jiziya in the Arab world on non-muslims. This may look very critical at first, but if you think with a clear head, it seems practical.

    Wonder how you’d feel about such a “practical” tax being applied on the minorities of India too??

  45. Anshuman Patel Says:

    Wading in quite late into this debate in the midst of World Cup, football frenzy and what have you.

    To continue in the same paradigm, the scoreline doesn’t look too good. It’s fanatics( of all religious hues) 10 – common folks (who tie the plastic bag to the handle of the front door for Nandini milk) 0.

    It’s not encouraging and rather sad. I for one can’t pick between Zakir Naik and Praveen Togadia.

    Any one, irrespective of the faith or ideology h/she professes, who thinks my way is highway and the rest is dust is not a good thing for the general health of any society IMHO.

  46. Vitlan Potli Says:

    on a different note-

    http://blog.dawn.com/2010/06/23/the-anti-islam-vote-in-the-netherlands-elections/

  47. Tanveer Says:

    The video posted by Pagan seem to be of the demonstration in London against the Danish cartoons of the Prophet.

  48. babuds Says:

    Mr. Zakir Naik,

    Right now sharia can’t be adopted as the law in this country of ours as well as Manu Dharma Shastra or any similar law, not just for the reason they are archaic but for the sole reason that these laws are non-secular.

    I genuinely feel for your passion for all things Islam. If you are aching for subjecting yourself to Sharia ( and be careful with your preachings which can be considered blasphemous) you can migrate to either Pakistan or Saudi and become a citizen there. Or you can wait until this country turns non-secular and willingly opt for sharia, which is quite possible.

  49. Vinay Says:

    “The video posted by Pagan seem to be of the demonstration in London against the Danish cartoons of the Prophet.”

    Thanks Sherlock! :-)

    Even if I was in a big group, I would be ashamed and even scared of making statements like “UK, you will pay, 7/7 is on its way, Bin Laden is on his way, you’ll come crawling when the Mujahideen come roaring…” etc. etc.

    If guys make these kind of noises and protests, they have only themselves to blame for anti-muslim sentiment rising in Europe.

  50. Tanveer Says:

    @pagan
    what is WTF?

    @mysore peshava
    I resent u calling me an idiot.

    @Harkol
    You are entitled to your opinion Sir.
    ————————————

    My belief of Quran being the last Holy book of the Allmighty remains unwawered. It arises from the fact that each and everything around you is working in such a precise way, it leaves us quite spellbound. The rotations, the revolutions, the sun rising and setting, the flora and fauna around us, the seasons, the life and death itself. It leaves us with the thought that there surely is somebody who is responsible for its creation. Pondering us further to think of a reason and the inevitable conclusion.

    The Quran was given to the humanity when science was in the very dark ages. The scientific facts mentioned in the Quran itself assures us that it is no earthly manuscript.

    I really feel that all of us should stop criticising, and read for themselves “The Holy Quran” and draw their inferences.

  51. harkol Says:

    Tanveer:
    >The video posted by Pagan seem to be of the demonstration in London against the Danish cartoons of the Prophet.

    Does it matter? If a crime was comitted by the cartoonist, the only recourse would be to file a case against him. If he didn’t violate any rule of his country, then nothing can be done.

    But, a resident shouting such slogan against his own countrymen (or adopted country), is what the radical virus of Pan-Islamic unity does to the minds. They forget the hand that feeds them, and go after the abstract concept of Ummah, which in reality doesn’t exist.

    Khan Saheb keeps saying that Muslims are always suspect. It isn’t Muslims as a whole are suspect. But, it is the Islamists (who claim their religion is bigger than the nation, bigger than law, in fact as a law in itself) who cause their allegiance to be questioned.

  52. Pagan Says:

    Tanveer,

    WTF again.

    For your reading pleasure -

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin

    “The Quran was given to the humanity when science was in the very dark ages.”

    hmm..so that the mullahs can take us back to the dark ages?

  53. Vinay Says:

    “My belief of Quran being the last Holy book of the Allmighty remains unwawered.”

    Sure, no one has a problem with that. Go in peace, and more power to you. What most people resent is the attempt to bring Sharia into hitherto secular countries and similar such stuff. If any sane human being views Zakir Naik or Anjem Choudhary’s speeches in an impartial manner, he will immediately conclude that these guys are either insane, or poisonous.

  54. Prashanth Bhat Says:

    @ Tanveer

    A simple thought concerning your last post.
    You suggested that everything was functioning in a very precise manner and also that it leaves you spell bound. Sir, you must please understand that not everybody feels spellbound by what is around them and everything is definitely not precise. Your idea of precision is perhaps falsified and what you think is perfect might be less than perfect, which it actually is.

    Anyway, it’s not my intention to enlighten you on the nuances of human thought and science, that an archaic text might perhaps never allow you to envisage but I wish you understand that there are perfectly valid opinions which necessarily do not agree with yours and that one should allow it to remain that way.

  55. srisri Says:

    Tanveer,

    There is nothing unique about kuran or any other semitic holy(?) books. Mo claimed it was dictated to him by a man wearing a raincoat called jibreel (gabriel). This same man in raincoat also dictated a book to Moses, up in a cave when no one was watching before Mo was born. It was called ten commandments. Mo took the gullible arabs for a royal ride on the camel appropriating their wealth and women, and ordained his followers to go do the same thing in other lands and spread islam. Transalated to english, he gave religious sanction to plundering. If you remove those Islamic glasses and look at islam dispassionately, it is nothing more than a business model, which has been formulated by MO and practiced successfully by his followers. And regarding the abundant scientific facts in kuran, does it not say the mountains are held by pegs on the surface of earth and the sun goes into a muddy pond at night and then reappears in the morning, drinking of camel urine is beneficial to health (no, not the camel’s health) and so forth. That is a lot of scientific knowledge to ponder over in one lifetime :)

    ***

    As an aside, let us grant the wish of the likes of Zakir naik, khan and tanveer and implement the sharia only for the muslim population of India. It would be a lot of fun to watch daily beheadings and chopping off of body parts of the momins in city centers . It could also be telecast on Peees TV of Naik and get some sponsorship from the devout momins. The possibilities are endless.

  56. harkol Says:

    Tanveer:

    >It leaves us with the thought that there surely is somebody who is responsible for its creation.

    I like your devotion to your faith. But, an belief is not an opinion. It is a doctrine. An opinion can be questioned and changed, but a doctrine can’t be – for it isn’t based on facts.

    This is precisely why I mentioned, it is beyond the capability of our limited brains to comprehend information of universe. It is estimated that there is so much man created information available today, a human brain can’t even consume and digest even a small fraction of all man-created information, leave alone Billions of years of universe’s info.

    So, no religion in its reality can answer the question of god with any certainty. If we accept that God created universe, then it becomes a recursive ‘chick n egg’ question of ‘who created god’?

    :-(

    ***

    Anshuman:
    >I for one can’t pick between Zakir Naik and Praveen Togadia.

    Do we need to pick between these two? Both seem to have lost their balance, so what is there to pick?

    Tanveer:
    >The scientific facts mentioned in the Quran itself assures us that it is no earthly manuscript.

    Curious. Can you elaborate a bit more? Thanks.

  57. harkol Says:

    To all those who are religiously inclined:

    - We live in a universe. Mathematical proofs show the existence of other universes.

    - The diameter of our observable Universe alone is estimated at 93billion Light years, unobservable universe is estimated to be larger by orders of magnitude.

    - The observable universe contains between 3 x 10^22 to 7 x 10^22 (10 to the power of 22) or 30 to 70 sextillion stars.

    - The age of our current Universe is calculated to be 13.7billion years. Humans have existed for less than 200,000 years, and civilization existed for less than 10,000 years, religions have existed for less than 5,000 years. That works out to less than 0.00005% of age of universe.

    - Calculated in universal scale : religions are comprehended (if not conceived) in the minds of people – who constitute infinitesimal fraction of a spec of dust, whose existence has been for the duration of a flash of lightening.

    Even if God (a concept that is difficult to comprehend in itself), decided to reveal truth about universe – How can any human brain comprehend the truth of a universe that has order of magnitude more stars than the 100billion neurons in our brain?

    So, isn’t it laughable to hear people argue their religion (or any religion) to be ultimate truth?

  58. Sifar Says:

    Dear friend,

    True-Islam and terrorism are antonyms, in fact Islam hates terrorism. Prophet Mohammed was a full fledged brave-warrior who stood against falsehood and he never resorted to any kind of terrorism or terrorist tactics that are similar to sudden bombing or fear-based torture even on his most deadliest enemies. Only the most deluded and the cowards will resort to terrorism as a retaliatory solution to any given problem. When Zakir Naik calls for the terrorizing of the terrorists, it is like calling for the raping of the rapists, it takes us to no solution.

    Zakir Naik justifies his definition of terrorism by saying that a thief is terrified by a policeman, and so a police man is a terrorist to a theif. This is wrong. A policeman is only terrifying the thief not terrorizing. A policeman only tries to imprison the thief, and if evidence is provided before the court, only then is corrective measures taken. A policeman is not a terrorist to a thief. Similarly there is no terrorism in Islam, even when against the real terrorist themselves. Prophet Mohammed was devoid of the least amount of terror. He did not even terrorize the very woman that poisoned him. People used to throw rubbish on his face, yet he was a man of great patience and forbearance and he won many a hearts. This is true Islam. Such a great man he really was!

    Prophet Mohammed will never use terrorism to fight terrorism, he always used the truth along with a brave army of companions to fight the infidels only in a war of reason, code and self-defense in the way of the Truth before Allah.

    Once Ali, companion of Prophet Mohammed was at war, and he got into a fight with a very dangerous criminal, he finally overcame him and sat on his chest to kill him. The opponent spat at his face. Ali at once left him. Seeing this the man was very much surprised and asked the reason. Ali said, “I was killing you for God’s sake but when you spat on my face, my sincerity was endangered because of the personal feelings of anger.” Hearing this the man immediately submitted and asked repentance to Al-God. Such was the honor and code that these men of Mohammed had, even at the crucial moments of war.

    Whereas terrorism is akin to a mad stupid man jumping from behind a bush, stabbing, bombing and shooting an unaware person at random to cause a state of fear all around. Mohammed will never support such cowardice. True-Islam and Terrorism are antonyms any day.

    Please to understand true Islam more… do visit this link
    http://iamstillzero.blogspot.com/2010/06/pseudo-scholars.html

    Cheers,
    Sifar

  59. mysore peshva Says:

    *Tanveer Sahab*

    I resent your discriminating against non-Muslims and then shamelessly saying you did the non-Muslims a broadminded favor by not simply killing them.

  60. Prashanth Bhat Says:

    @srisri,

    Your words were damn humorous and had me laughing for long!
    But I wont be surprised if Mr. Tanveer doesn’t see any of it!

  61. Tanveer Says:

    @Pagan

    >For your reading pleasure -

    >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
    >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin

    Dont give me your home address…please.

    @SriSri
    >There is nothing unique about kuran or any other semitic holy(?) >books. Mo claimed it was dictated to him by a man wearing a raincoat >called jibreel (gabriel). This same man in raincoat also dictated a book >to Moses, up in a cave when no one was watching before Mo was born. >It was called ten commandments. Mo took the gullible arabs for a royal >ride on the camel appropriating their wealth and women, and ordained >his followers to go do the same thing in other lands and spread islam. >Transalated to english, he gave religious sanction to plundering. If you >remove those Islamic glasses and look at islam dispassionately, it is >nothing more than a business model, which has been formulated by >MO and practiced successfully by his followers. And regarding the >abundant scientific facts in kuran, does it not say the mountains are >held by pegs on the surface of earth and the sun goes into a muddy >pond at night and then reappears in the morning, drinking of camel >urine is beneficial to health (no, not the camel’s health) and so forth. >That is a lot of scientific knowledge to ponder over in one lifetime :)

    Truly I pity your information. Mr.Srisri, you have been given a lot of crap by your informers. Except for the mountains being mentioned as counter balancers and pegged onto the earth to create a balance, all the other info is false. What was that drink camel’s urine…ha ha. Makes me laugh out loud.

    That is why I repeatedly implore you to read the Quran, rather than on hear say.

    @Harkol
    >If one thing Historians agree on it is – Both Christianity and Islam >converted people by sword.

    The 1000 odd years of muslim rule in India would have definitely ensured 100% muslims in India , if your so called Historians are to be beleived.

    The problem comes when the society look at the muslims and then form their own assumption on Islam. Truly friends, in all humility I request you to read the Quran, to clear these misunderstandings. A few of the Scientific facts mentioned in the Quran are

    - All Oceans are seperated and do not inter mingle
    - The embryological facts are just so elaborate..i really wonder if scientists have used it for thesis.
    - The complex world of honey bees…explained in detail
    - The existence of other extra-terrestrial life.

    The list is endless.

    To end on a different note…I definitely feel Argentina will win FIFA 2010.

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