Why does Mysore need Jamshedpur for water?

KIRAN RAO BATNI writes: The price of water has gone up by at least five times in Mysore, which is a stone’s throw away from the Krishna Raja Sagara dam.

Those who were paying Rs 75 per month are now required to pay anywhere from Rs 400 to Rs 500.

Just a few months ago, a company called JUSCO completed installation of their pipes and meters in addition to the existing ones, promising 24×7 water and better customer service. Residents had to pay anywhere form Rs 500 to Rs 2000 to install T-sections, complete the piping from the curb to the water meter, and patch up the masonry.

I’ve always wondered why Mysore, home to Sir M.Visvesvaraya, one of the greatest civil engineers and water management gurus in the history of mankind, had to knock on the doors of a Jamshedpur Utilities & Services Company Ltd for distributing its own water.

Why didn’t a MUSCO do this?

Would it have been too good for the consumer, or for the employees?

Anyway. Today, there is neither the 24×7 water (it’s more like 3×5), nor the better customer service. But there’s a five times hike in the water bill. The quality of water has reduced considerably in the last twenty years.

We used to drink directly from the tap twenty years ago, but today we’re forced to buy water filters or UV or RO machines or risk health problems – and these machines need maintenance to the tune of Rs 3,000 to Rs 4,000 per year, plus the electricity charge and the area they occupy in the kitchen.

Coming back to the issue at hand, corporators of the Mysore City Corporation, upon receiving complaints from a handful people like me are asking people to not pay the water bill, but are shying away from making public statements to the same effect.

MLA and Mysore district in-charge, S. A. Ramdas has issued a statement that the price hike will be withheld. But nothing has happened on the ground, as we just received the water bill with the increased rate.

When I contacted the MCC (Mysore City Corporation) public relations officer, M. V. Sudha (mobile phone number: 9449859915), she explained that the MCC is basically out of funds, hinting that revenue from water is inevitable. K. S. Raykar, commissioner, MCC, didn’t pick up the phone.

If what M.V. Sudha says is right—that the MCC is starved of funds—and I have strong reasons to believe that she is, then everything falls in place.

The MCC is starved of funds because it is not allowed to make revenue to even sustain itself, because of the lopsided ‘democracy’ in which we live, where the concentration of power increases with distance from the people: New Delhi wields more power than Bangalore which, in turn, wields more power than Mysore, over Mysoreans!

Is this democracy?

***

Barely ninety nine years ago, in 1913, right here in Mysore, His Highness Maharaja Krishnaraja Wodeyar concluded a treaty with Edwin Montagu, under-secretary of State, government of (British) India.

According to the treaty, which clarified the relationship between the State of Mysore and the Government of India, the Maharaja obtained full powers of internal administration, subject only to the general supremacy and paramountcy of the British government – something his father, His Highness Maharaja Chamaraja Wodeyar did not enjoy.

But in less than 34 years, amidst the waving of flags in New Delhi and elsewhere, and the bursting of crackers and some meaningless riots near Lahore and Calcutta, His Highness Maharaja Jayachamarajendra Wodeyar lost all the power his father had obtained in the treaty with Montagu.

It appears that he became worse than the corporator I called today, in terms of the power he came to hold. Of course, some money was thrown in into his kitty, going under the name of privy purse, in return for agreeing to a slight change of job description: king to pawn.

Sir M. Visvesvaraya saw with his own eyes how the Maharaja of Mysore was relieved of nearly all his powers by the Government of India (the free one, the Indian one) which consequently reduced the autonomy and powers of internal administration of the State of Mysore.

What was the State of Mysore has today literally transformed into a municipal corporation, and this municipal corporation is not even the ‘glorified municipal corporation’ that J. Jayalalitha recently talked about when she accused the Central government of undermining federalism.

That glory goes to the government of Karnataka, not to the municipal corporation of Mysore.

Wrote Sir MV, expressing hope that things would change and decentralization would happen as the passing phase passed:

The States are now, for all political purposes, closely integrated with the Centre and though they are units of the Federation, they occupy, in actual working, a lower subordinate position than what they held under the British administration. It is hoped that this is only a passing phase in the evolution of the new democracy. (Sir. M. Visveswaraya, Memoirs of My Working Life, Ministry of Information and Broadcasting, Government of India, 1960, p. 58)

Clearly, Sir MV had hoped for too much. The ‘phase’ has neither passed, nor shows any signs of passing. New Delhi continues to be the new Paramount Power in India – with a paramountcy surpassing that of the British.

***

In the meanwhile, the greatest minds of Mysore – Engineers, Doctors, CAs, MBAs, etc., have all gone away, or have all turned away, while their aged parents are waiting for money orders to pay the increased water bill with.

Also read: If it’s summer, it’s time for a nice Cauvery row

‘A magic, moving, living part of the very earth’

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61 Responses to “Why does Mysore need Jamshedpur for water?”

  1. Brahmanyan Says:

    It is a pity the powers of States are usurped by the Central Government, one after another. The Country has been transformed from a welfare State to (un) limited Company of corrupt people. Running a vehicle on roads cost money, as also, health and education.

  2. har.sri.ga Says:

    the damm UPA govt. is working on such policies which will leave a huge dent in our pockets sooner or later..
    http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article2820794.ece
    the irony is that govt. plans to recover full cost of operations by outsourcing it to a private operator. Why cant the govt. can run the services on its own or atleast like telecomm sector.
    Mangalore has already started the protest against such move and its time for Mysuru to start one soon!
    http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-04-29/mangalore/31475903_1_water-supply-mcc-24×7

  3. M Says:

    JUSCO case proves that despite Narayana Murthy’s constant harangue, PRIVATISATION is not always a solution for our civic problems.

    In UK, the water utility in England is private while in Scotland it’s a public service. But the final service in both the places remain same.

  4. shanoi Says:

    Mysore citizens should thank God that the Corporation and Government did not think of Phoren Consultants. Bangalore went for phoren for developing city’s revised master plan which came up with the out of the box idea of mixed development in residential area as a justification for rapid growth of the city. As a result many peaceful residential areas have become noisy, crowded, parking on both sides of the road etc., Places like High grounds, Sirur park, have become hellish for people who love quiet surroundings
    If you have an intention there are always half a dozen consultants to
    Find a way around

  5. maisuru Says:

    @Barely ninety nine years ago, in 1913, right here in Mysore, His Highness Maharaja Krishnaraja Wodeyar concluded a treaty with Edwin Montagu, under-secretary of State, government of (British) India….

    It was during the visit of Lord Hardinge, Viceroy of India’s visit to Mysore in Nov 1913, the treaty was drafted at Karapur during a Khedda operation. Maharaja, Sir Hugh Daly and Sir MV were present. and it was officially announced at Mysore on 6-11-1913.

    @But in less than 34 years, amidst the waving of flags in New Delhi and elsewhere, and the bursting of crackers and some meaningless riots near Lahore and Calcutta, His Highness Maharaja Jayachamarajendra Wodeyar lost all the power his father had obtained in the treaty with Montagu.

    Maharaja KRW IV was the uncle of Maharaja JCRW – not father.

    Maharaja JCRW only signed an Instrument of Accession with the dominion of India in 1947 – did not surrender his sovereignty and continued as the Ruler of Mysore till 26-1-1950,when India became a Republic as Mysore adopted the constitution of India as the constitution of Mysore and Maharaja became a Rajapramukh.

    Tata’s have a long association with Mysore. IISC was established by Tata’s. Even Tata Silk farm in Bangalore is as old. So why this high voltage hubris against JUSCO.

  6. BangaloreBaba Says:

    I don’t know the complete background behind the selection of JUSCO for this task, but it could have been competitive bidding, right? At least officially.

    Why did we choose the UP state highways corporation for Domlur flyover? Why did we choose Samsung construction for hundreds of infra projects in Mumbai? Maybe we should ask, “why does Mumbai need Seoul for a bridge?”

    If the powers-that-be had chosen the French company Suez for water supply in the city, would we see an article in churumuri, “Why does Mysore need Paris for water”?

    The real reason is most probably good ol’ bribe/commission culture. I find it very hard to believe that it is because of “control” by Delhi/Bangalore that JUSCO has been “forced” upon Mysore.

  7. Goswami.J Says:

    Come to Jamshedpur and see the WHO quality of water supplied by JUSCO. You will then appreciate why Mysore needs JUSCO.

  8. Kiran Batni Says:

    @maisuru

    Thanks for pointing out several factual errors in my article.

    The treaty was indeed signed with Hardinge, not Montagu. I just checked. Montagu, as under-secretary, was not the one qualified to sign, I guess. And I believe Karapur is in Mysore.

    You’re right about KRW being JCRW’s uncle. My mistake.

    I consider JCRW signing the instrument of accession was equivalent to surrendering sovereignty. Defense, external affairs and communications were ceded. That’s nearly all the powers, a la Subsidiary Alliance. A state which loses these three subjects loses everything, because that entity which gets these three subjects can poke its nose in internal administration citing defense and national security reasons.

    Because the Tatas have an old association with Mysore, shall we invite them to do all the doing of Mysoreans?

    Thanks again for the corrections. I will make the corrections on Karnatique, my blog.

    Kiran

    ***

    @BangaloreBaba

    Yes, we should ask all those questions. Letting others do all our work is a sure-shot way of becoming redundant on our own land. I believe you will agree that the people of Mysore should not become redundant to Mysore.

    Sir MV had launched a so-called ‘Mysore for Mysoreans’ campaign after non-Mysoreans had started taking jobs in Mysore for the same reason that you quote: they did better in competitive examinations (See Barbara Ramusack, The Indian Princes and their States).

    What if JUSCO is better? Self governance is better than good governance. And there is no reason why MUSCO cannot beat JUSCO. It may take some more time, but isn’t that better than becoming redundant on our own land?

    @Goswami.J

    If Jamshedpur’s water distribution is good, I offer my congratulations. But that does not mean we must invite JUSCO to do our work. Mysoreans are running around like crazy trying to find work all over the world, when there is work for them right in Mysore. Why should their work be done by outsiders?

    Besides, I’m sure the roads are better in Singapore, sewages are better in California, green cover is better in Leuven, etc., etc. Shall we invite people from these places to do all our work?

  9. Rajarshi Roy Says:

    From pointing out poor water utility services at Mysore, this essay goes on to build a case fo increased autonomy. By getting into the historical aspects of relationship between the Maharaja of Mysore and British India, I fail to understand what is the point which the author is trying to make. In some respects, it sounds uncannily similar to the autonomy and ‘azaadi’ narrative of Kashmiris. There is no doubt that Mysore was one of the most progressive princely states of British India but then linking the water problems of a Municipal Corporation to issues of autonomy is a bit far-fetched to me. What’s next – a secessionist movement for Karnataka?

  10. Kiran Batni Says:

    @ Rajarshi Roy

    Yes, the article builds a case for increased autonomy. The historical aspects are presented in support.

    Linking iPad distribution with autonomy would be far fetched, not water distribution.

    What I presented is admittedly only the ‘water problems of a Municipal Corporation’, but the overall problem is the sidelining of Kannadigas in their own land, of which the above is only one manifestation. Kannadigas’ work is being taken away by others, their land is being taken away by others. As I see it, their air will be breathed by others next.

    I want to return the question in your last sentence to you: What do you want to see next in the states before the GoI sees the point in more autonomy to them? Secessionist movements everywhere? The days of expecting the people of India to be the ‘dumb millions’ who can’t read or write, let alone dig up history, are clearly gone.

  11. BangaloreBaba Says:

    Kiran Batni, there are some fundamental flaws in your arguments. I am sorry to say this, but your mind seems to be clouded with socialist protectionist thinking.

    This is the kind of thinking that led to substandard services all over the country for decades, and substandard nation at the end of it. The whole point is that everything needs to be done by the people who can do it best, in the most cost-effective manner.

    Now, if you feel that JUSCO has not given you good quality or competitive rates, that is a valid complaint. But frankly, what matters at the end of the day is the benefit of the citizens of Mysore. If a company from Somalia can offer good consistent water supply to Mysoreans at cheap rates, just get that company in to provide the service.

    I apologize for being blunt, but statements like “there is no reason why MUSCO cannot beat JUSCO” are simply juvenile. There is no reason why HAL cannot beat Boeing, there is no reason why DRDO cannot beat BAE systems. Maybe you should write your next blog arguing that Indian carriers should stop buying 747s and 787s, and wait for HAL to provide the equivalent. And so on… I hope you get the drift.

    You are worried that Mysoreans are running around like crazy all over the world searching for jobs? Really? If someone talks about building giant factories in Mysore, your lot begins to shout about pollution, loss of “peace and quiet”, and all that. What should an automobile engineer do – sell Kadlepuri in Mysore? If someone talks about massive highrises and real estate development in Mysore, your lot begins chest beating about the “loss of Mysore’s values”. What should an architect do? Teach drawing to primary kids in Najnangud government school? If someone talks about IT parks in Mysore, that brings out extreme anger from your lot. What should a software engineer do? Open a cyber cafe on KRS road and sit?

    You want to preserve Mysore like a museum so that you can have your by-2 kaapi and Masale Dose in peace, and you lament Mysoreans running around for jobs. Do you have the courage to welcome Mumbai-like development in Mysore, so that Mysoreans stop running around for jobs? Your jujupi water municipality jobs are not going to help, trust me.

    This pseudo socialism is the most harmful thing for the country, and is the worst thing in our country at the moment.

    I agree with Rajshiri Roy to some extent – in some respects, your piece is uncannily similar to something that one would expect from Azadi advocates like Geelani.

  12. BangaloreBaba Says:

    And I forgot the main thing. Whether Jamshedpur based or US-based or Bangladesh-based, the important thing is to look at whether they are importing people from their home location to perform the tasks.

    IBM, Hyundai, HP, Nokia etc. are companies that have significant presence in Indian cities, and have recruited humungous number of Indians. They haven’t brought planeloads of Americans or Koreans of Finnish people to fill their factories and offices here.

    All pseudo-socialists should understand this. There is a difference between company ownership and company staff.

    Kiran Batni, firstly I don’t agree that “Kannadigas are being sidelined in their own land”, but if that is your concern, you could ask for locals to be employed in these projects, irrespective of which company implements them.

    You lose the plot completely with your pseudo-socialist musings.

  13. BangaloreBaba Says:

    Kiran Batni, firstly I don’t agree that “Kannadigas are being sidelined in their own land”, but if that is your concern, you could ask for locals to be employed in these projects, irrespective of which company implements them.

    You lose the plot completely with your pseudo-socialist musings.

  14. Kiran Batni Says:

    @BangaloreBaba

    You are jumping to conclusions and generalizations (“your lot” and the like). Therefore, you are missing my argument and replying to your preconceived notion of what you think my argument can ever be.

    Remember that I did not say that the government should take back the water distribution in Mysore. I asked why a MUSCO did not do it. So much about socialism.

    I believe you will agree that good service cannot be preferred to self service at all times. Think of the bedroom and the good service your ‘better’ neighbor can provide to your spouse. I only said you and your spouse don’t need that good service. It may take time for you to do better than your neighbor, but it is better to wait – and try, not eat kadlepuri. What if your neighbor remains eternally ‘better’? Then, too, it is better to try and approach him or her instead of replacing yourself with him or her. I hope you get the drift. And do please forgive me, too, for being blunt.

    I am not against the development of Mysore. I am against that development of Mysore which is accompanied by the replacement of Mysoreans by others. Thus, I am not against automobile factories, real estate development, etc. I am against all this if it results in the extinction of Mysoreans. I am calling out for the growth of Mysore, not to preserve it as a museum. But I am calling out for Mysoreans to do it, not others. In most cases, it is when others do it that the peace and quiet, the pristine air, the simple pleasures you mention, are all destroyed. When Mysoreans do it themselves, whatever is worth retaining in these will be retained.

    Unfortunately, even your second comment continues to stereotype me. So, I hope you will let let me explain.

    I completely agree that ‘there is a difference between company ownership and company staff’. Very well said. But my only point of difference with you is what I consider as local, and what you consider as local. The IBMs are not bringing in Americans, the Hyundais are not bringing in Koreans, and the Nokias are not bringing in the Finns. But they are all bringing in the north Indians, for example, and in hordes. Now I don’t consider them as locals in Bangalore or Mysore, whatever they themselves may feel. Just like I don’t consider your neighbour as ‘local’ in your bedroom.

    I have already replied to Rajarshi Roy, so please refer to that comment.

  15. Rajarshi Roy Says:

    Mr. Kiran Batni,

    While I appreciate your sentiments about Kannadigas being sidelined in their own land – a theme which appears on Churumuri in various different forms – it may be pertinent to note that decision makers (municipal corporators, legislators) are all Kannadigas. So, even if we make a case of autonomy the rulers (they are people’s servants but they don’t think themselves so :)) are going to be the same. Just like Britishers being replaced by Indians didn’t make any difference to the quality of life of a peasant – white sahibs were just replaced by brown sahibs. If you talk about autonomy, you need to go further down – at taluk level, village level, community level, probably, at the level of an individual family. Then, it will become apparent that the centralized, statist model needs to be torn away altogether. So, it is a systemic issue and just tinkering with autonomy bit here and there will only shift the bottleneck and not eliminate it.

    Being an ‘outsider’ all my life and having lived in 5 different states across the length and breadth of the country, let me assure that the ‘son of the soil’ sentiment expressed in your comment is omnipresent – only the degree of hostility & xenophobia varies.

    In the final analysis, commerce and business doesn’t know any linguistic or ethnic boundaries just as corruption doesn’t know any caste or religion. So, when the politicians collude with land sharks to sell their natural heritage short or give a virtual carte blanche to plunder the environment, it doesn’t really matter whether the politician is a Kannadiga or the land shark is a Punjabi. You can lift and shift the environmental degradation of Bangalore to fragile ecosystem of Western Ghats in Maharashtra – just change a few things here and there – and the essence remains same. :)

    With Best Wishes,
    Rajarshi

  16. s k muthanna Says:

    For once I have realized that privatization in any of the public utility service is never an assurer of corruption free India. In fact, fleecing of the users of the service is the in thing now, be it Cell phone service, water supply or any other. These bodies rendering outsourced service are not accountable and there is a definite nexus between the Govt Dept and the serv provider. The public/users are taken for granted and taken for a ride ! None can stop it – not even Hazaar Annas!!

  17. RV Says:

    Heading itself is laughable. Author should visit Jamshedpur once before writing this article. Definitely JUSCO awarded this task after a competitive bidding and looking at their past experience. JUSCO had employed most of the people from Mysore itself. Who knows the reason behind the failure of the project. But as a admirer of Tata’s I must say that everything would be streamlined soon. People will get quality service soon. Be supportive to JUSCO.

  18. Kiran Batni Says:

    Mr. Rajarshi Roy,

    I agree with most of your response. I also agree that tinkering with autonomy here and there will not eliminate the bottleneck. But fortunately or unfortunately, politics and commerce are very practical fields of human endeavor, where progress can be made only in very small steps. The question, therefore, is whether more autonomy is better or worse, not whether more autonomy is the absolute answer. My answer to the former question is that more autonomy is certainly better.

    Note that I am implicitly talking about autonomy at the city level, although I hesitate to go below that level as you suggest. I guess the level at which we can even talk about autonomy depends on the total accumulated capital required to maintain stability.

    It is surprising that you should say commerce and business do not know any linguistic or ethnic boundaries. I am increasingly becoming aware that commerce and business necessarily conform to linguistic and ethnic boundaries from the point of view of collaboration and cooperation – not from the point of view of victimization. Thus, two Kannadigas can collaborate and cooperate more with each other than one Kannadiga and, say, one Gujarati. Some crucial ingredieints of cooperation and collaboration are missing in the latter context, and language and a feeling of kindred are two such. This is, of course, very different from religion which can cross boundaries with surprising ease – and I believe that is because religion, in the ultimate analysis, is an individual pursuit not requiring collaboration and cooperation with others.

    But I agree that the corrupt businessman and the corrupt politician are the same everywhere. Corruption is the same everywhere.

    I am not sure if you are a Bengali, but whether you are or not, it is probably worth noting that Rabindranath Tagore was of the opinion that nationalism itself was an ‘applied science’, and therefore the same wherever it is to be found. The same thing can be applied to corruption – it is a science which applies everywhere and to everybody, irrespective of linguistic or ethnic borders.

    On your being an outsider: I appreciate the learning that you have obtained, being an outsider. I have some of that learning too, and I think the worst mistake we can make is to consider us to be representative ‘Indians’. No, most Indians are not like us, most Indians do not travel or migrate as often as some of us do. Therefore, we cannot advocate for systems which take the lot of us to represent the whole of India.

    Regards
    Kiran

  19. BangaloreBaba Says:

    Kiran Batni, I understand where you are coming from. Of course, I made some assumptions about your thinking, but then, most people who write such articles have the kind of thinking that I assumed you have. ;)

    The point about IBM and Hyundai is an important one, let us look at it in more detail. First, let us agree on the following parameters as sacred:

    1. We need development to get our masses out of poverty. We need development in Bangalore, Mysore, Gulbarga as well as Bhatkal.

    2. We need foreign companies and foreign investment, wherever feasible and possible, as a means of development and generating employment.

    3. We need to encourage the Hyundais and IBMs to provide employment in our cities.

    No right thinking person will refuse to agree with these points. And I am sure you are right-thinking. :)

    Now, what happens when IBM sets up an office with a capacity of 10,000 people in Bangalore? When Accenture does the same, HP and Logica and Ericcson and Dell do the same? When a hundred others do the same?

    Does Bangalore (or even Karnataka) have enough qualified graduates to fill in the positions? The fact is NO state in India has the necessary numbers. IBM is not “bringing North Indians”. Without “North Indians”, IBM cannot function here.

    This is how it is going to be everywhere. Tomorrow, when IBM sets up an office in Jaipur, there will be massive migration of outsiders into Jaipur. Then, Hyundai will set up something in Surat, and there will again be a massive migration there.

    Do you know the state of the construction industry in Bangalore? Do you know that there is a severe labour crunch here? Contractors are tearing their hair and paying “Gare kelsa” people 500 per day. The Tamilians are rare to find nowadays, thanks to ThiruKa’s Rs. 2/kg rice schemes and sipcots in TN. The Biharis came, but NREGA and Nitish Kumar’s schemes are pulling them back. All the BBMP workers are Biharis, and now they are slowly being replaced by Oriyas and UP-wallahs.

    It is easy to say that “outsiders should not come and hog jobs here” – outsiders come here because the demand for workers outstrips supply. Not just in IT, but in every other field.

    I don’t know what field you are in or what work you do. But most people will come across a need to travel to different cities, one time or the other. I try my hardest to stay in Bangalore, but my job forces me to shuttle between Bangalore,Delhi and East Asian nations. Tomorrow I might be forced to move to Mumbai or Hyderabad for my job. What can one do?

    I know you don’t have any solution or suggestions for this, simply because there is no solution. :)

  20. BangaloreBaba Says:

    But yeah, Kiran – instead of counterproductive discussions like debarring outsiders coming in, jobs only for “Mannina Makkalu”, and all that, it would help if you could campaign to sensitize outsiders to respect the local traditions and behave. I campaign relentlessly for this, and you should do the same. But just accept that there will be outsiders.

  21. maisuru Says:

    @Kiran Batni ..

    About Instrument of Accession: It only gave power for the dominion of India to make laws for the three subjects. It was for the purposes of keeping the homogeneity of India and avoid internal strife It is for this purpose, The Rulers also signed another agreement called as Standstill agreement.

    S-8 of the Instrument specifically states:

    8. Nothing in this Instrument affects the continuance of my sovereignty in and over this state, or save as provided by or under this instrument the exercise of any powers, authority and rights now enjoyed by me as Ruler of this State or the validity of any law at present in this state;

  22. Kiran Batni Says:

    @BangaloreBaba

    I am glad to note that you are ready to stop stereotyping me. I know it’s hard, and I have been the victim of the urge to stereotype others. It is so easy!

    You have raised valid concerns regarding manpower for state-of-the-art industries. My solution is to delay things. As I said, better to delay the best service to your spouse than to bring in the neighbor to the bedroom…and then ask the neighbor to senstitize him or her to the traditions of your family and ‘behave’.

    You will see things my way if you admit that Karnataka is not real estate. The development of Karnataka is not the development of the real estate of Karnataka. It is the development of the people of Karnataka, the natives of Karnataka.

    @maisuru

    V. P. Menon, the person who drafter the IoA, explains that by taking those three powers, the Centre gets a free hand in internal affairs. It is a fundamental law in politics: take defense, external affairs, and communications, and you take all. This was the exact situation during the times of the Subsidiary Alliance.

  23. BangaloreBaba Says:

    Kiran Batni, so basically you have no answer. Just saying “delay things” is as good as saying you don’t know what to do about things or what the solution is – you are simply frantically making noises, with no answer to practical issues.

    Delay things? Yeah right, and then we will probably see posts from you on churumuri about how the unfair system of India is allowing Andhra, TN, Rajashtan and Gujarat to develop, while Karnataka is being left behind. And some additional moaning on how Mysoreans are running like crazy all over the place for jobs.

    After all this discussion, this is all you can come up with – delay things! Huh.

    And yes – you need to tell me why development of the real estate of Karnataka is not the development of the natives of Karnataka. You are tempting me to stereotype you again – do you agree that the natives of Bangalore are immeasurably better off today than they were 10 years back? Or do you deny this? I am talking about all natives of Bangalore, from the Basavanagudi natives to the Yeshwanthpur industrial estate natives, to the tannery road natives, to the Whitefield natives.

  24. Kiran Batni Says:

    @BangaloreBaba

    Yes, my solution is to delay things. Your solution is to admit your neighbor into your bedroom, but I don’t call that as a solution. I call that as prostitution.

    Development of the real estate of Karnataka is not the development of the natives of Karnataka, because real estate and natives are two different things. The former is land, the latter is people. Focusing on the development of the former leads to forgetting the latter and inviting neighbors to bedrooms.

    I said delay things, not cancel things. To take your phrase, we should not sit eating kadlepuri or drinking by-2 coffee after delaying things, but stretch our arms towards progress.

    Note that delaying things is happening even as we speak. Why did India develop its own atomic energy capability when the world had it many decades ago? Why is India trying to send a man to the moon, after so much delay? Couldn’t we have invited the neighbor to the bedroom?

    Why, take your own family. Why didn’t your parents replace you with a son or daughter who is already well educated, instead of taking the trouble of schooling you from the zeroth level? Isn’t that delaying, my friend? Yes, please go ahead and laugh at this, too. It’s your parents’ stupidity that they waited so many years to get you in shape, right?

    The natives of Bangalore are immeasurably better off, you say? Than whom? Ask any native Bangalorean and he or she will tell you how things have gone from bad to worse over time, and are going from bad to worse by the minute! And, who do you refer to when you say ‘natives of Bangalore’? They are Kannadigas, and most of them are today finding it hard to eat two square meals a day, while hordes and hordes of ‘better’ people – often better only in name – are coming and taking their places. Is this their development? Whatever development you are referring to is only the development of the real estate of Bangalore – dead matter lying here and there, and taking its toll of the natives. Even outside the discussion about the natives of Karnataka, I don’t call even that real-estate development as decent. The world has much better examples of real estate development, without the genocide of the natives. Just look at the amount of filth being tossed around in the name of development in Bangalore, the amount of poison in the air and water, and you’ll see why. Perhaps the most important reason for this is that Bangalore has been invaded by filthily rich outsiders who care two hoots for it. They rape her, and they leave her destroyed. This is development for you, my friend?

    Even if this ‘development’ is inevitable, I’d say let’s delay it as much as possilble. Yes, delay, that word you seem to dislike so much!

    Your model of ‘development’ is what I can describe as the colonial model. Of course the US is a great country now, with riches overflowing from every corner, and everything spic and span. But disaster is on the way, because this system will self-destruct if only given some time, as Gandhi said. Also, don’t forget that the US empire lies on land which is soaked in the blood of the native Americans. They are all dead now, and it is ‘development’ of the sort that you are advocating which killed them: real estate development, not the development of the natives. Are you an advocate of such development of Karnataka, which must destroy the Kannadigas? I am not. And I don’t think anybody ought to be, because that would be the advocacy of genocide, of crime, of the most heinous acts ever imaginable.

    But the problem is, we are so much programmed to deny life to our own fellow men, and to call real estate development as development, that we worship death as life! What a pitiable situation we are in!

  25. BangaloreBaba Says:

    Kiran Batni – your rants are not going to fill the stomachs of the Kannadigas who work as drivers in BPOs, who work as IT professionals in IT companies in Bangalore, who work as skilled labour like plumbers and carpenters, who work in malls, who own shops and rent out houses in Bangalore.

    Your rants are ok for pseudo-intellectual discussions over by-2 kaapi in Basavanagudi. How dare you talk about “Kannadigas not having two square meals”, when you want to deny them precisely this by ranting against development of Bangalore. Maybe you would prefer to see them starving in their Hallis without any scope for development or progress, at the mercy of the weather gods, as has always been the case.

    Don’t act too dramatic here – no one is coming and killing and murdering Kannadigas in droves, like the American invasion. Kannadigas are the prime beneficiaries of the boom in Bangalore, if you cannot admit this, you are either lying or you are just clueless. People in addition to Kannadigas have benefited from the boom, but that’s all one can say. I am a “native Bangalorean” too – the problem with people like you is, you whine about just three things – traffic and pollution and outsiders – and use it to beat down all other progress that has been made.

    Why did India develop atomic weapons or space capabilities, you ask? Huh – simply because no one would offer it to us. What a silly question. There was no choice apart from building it from the ground up. Silly comparisons, to make a silly point.

    Basically, the problem is just that some outsiders come here and act smart, and don’t assimilate with the locals, and have false sense of superiority complex.

    And people like Kiran Batni make that a case for “genocide of Kannadigas, like American invasion”, “we are acting like bringing other men to our wife”, “more autonomy”, and all kinds of needless stuff.

    Seriously, the way people throw around words like “genocide” – it is insulting and degrading to people who have actually experienced it. Maybe you should be time-transported back to Ukraine 1943 or Germany 1938 or Tibet 1960. You will probably learn to throw around that word sparingly. “Genocide” anthe, genocide – huh.

    The thing is, people who argue such things don’t have any concrete solutions. How do we develop in line with the other states of India? “We should delay things”. Huh – thank you, as a Bangalore-loving Kannadiga, I would prefer to stay in Bangalore for my job, rather than move to Mumbai or San Francisco or London, as would millions of people like me.

    And this point that “true Bangaloreans” dislike the development that is happening is simply not true. Go to the Bangalore subforum in http://www.skyscrapercity.com – the young Bangaloreans there excitedly discuss infra in Bangalore, companies, investment, celebrate the launch of new malls and offices, compare and compete with Delhi/Mumbai/Hyd/Chennai – they are “true Bangaloreans” too.

  26. navollasa Says:

    @maisuru:
    do you mean odeyar has betrayed the state by usurping powers to centre and washing off hands?

    @Kiran Batni
    agreed the fact is like kannada movies none of the kannadigas hold top positions anywhere in India on the other hand everyone have top posts in bengaluru.

    most of migration which was planned would unite India has been suicidal to people like us because we would never care to move out of our place which has all the things we need . why would anyone leave clean karnataka to a barren zone like delhi or slum like mumbai?

    so now they are sucking water from under ground, make land barren , populate migrants and increase real estates so that we will lose our ground and flee off to other places.

    people like SMK planned this to loot the people’s peace. i dont know why migrant people are so evil. Most families got broke in bengaluru for this believe it or not it’s a fact having seen many of them myself.

  27. BangaloreBaba Says:

    Navollasa, you are a laugh riot. You speak as though your so-called “evil migrants” are deliberately driving people away “sucking water from the ground”.

    What have you “seen yourself”? I have seen farmers around Chikkajala with sacks full of money, having sold their farmland to real estate developers and housing societies. I have seen landlords in Geddalahalli, Kuvempunagar, Doddabommasandra, etc. charging huge rents for tiny hovels, and using the money to visit malls. I have seen poor people from Mandya and Chamrajnagar driving Sumo and Qualis for various BPOs. I have seen families in Basavanagudi with one child in software company, and another on the way to USA. I have seen tiles shopkeepers in Tannery road who are purchasing cars today due to increased business, which they could not have imagined in the 1990s. I have seen electricians in Banashankri who are so busy with contracts that they refuse to come for small tasks like fixing bulbs and tubelights (“time illa saar”).

    Which evil migrant has made “most families in Bangalore broke”? What kind of lie is that?

  28. Kiran Batni Says:

    @BangaloreBaba

    I hope your words (about Kannadigas being the chief beneficiaries of the Bangalore boom) will come true. Today, it is far from being true.

    Even I don’t like to delay things. But even more do I not like Kannadigas vacating Karnataka for others. If you have a better solution for real estate development without Kannadiga removal, I welcome it. Till now you have only upheld the status quo, in which removal is reality.

    I mentioned about the fate of the American Indians only as an extreme example of the colonial development model.

    You didn’t get my point about indigenous growth versus borrowed labor. Atomic energy, moon travel, etc, etc, were developed indigenously for one very important reason: for the experience, for the organic growth of technology on Indian soil.

    Believe me, your parents didn’t take the neighbor’s already educated son (when you were just born) not because they didn’t give him, but for entirely different reasons.

    Thank you, and may the truth alone triumph. I will reply next only when a decent debate can take place. Not when it is made impossible by preconceived notions and ad hominem attacks.

  29. Nastika Says:

    @navollasa,
    Karnataka folks in Mangalore, Udupi have flooded Mumbai & its suburbs for many decades. People in Hyderabad-Karnataka still look out jobs in Kolhapur. Folks in Bangalore, Mysore always have one eye on USA. Plenty of folks heading to Gulf. Which part of Karnataka are you from? Just because you didn’t leave doesn’t mean the world isn’t moving.

    I have plenty of non-Karnataka origin friends. Given an option, they wouldn’t have come to Karnataka. They came here because they got a job in Bangalore and they had leave their hometown. They got job because local talent is used up. Given an option, the ‘migrants’ would go back to their hometowns.

    My job has taken me to Delhi, Bombay, Calcutta, Madras, Pune (I have lived in these cities as you call it as ‘migrant’). Bangalore has weather going for it. Except weather, other cities have same or better infrastructure than Bangalore.

    PS: If ‘migrants’ concern you so much, then why don’t you start issuing VISA for entering Karnataka? If you find this idea ridiculous then so is your comment. If you don’t find anything ridiculous in VISA idea, then its time you start building an army and finally separate from India.

    ~*~

  30. EmptyMind Says:

    Bangalore Baba

    The author is correct from his perspective. You are analyzing it from your narrow understanding of harsh realities. To make it easy to get his idea I will try to give small analogy very similar to disease of water distribution problem but at individual level.

    Let that individual be you at this point of time. i am extremely sorry for choosing you as an example here.

    You as an individual are always prone to disease. Let the birth and growth of any disease along with you be analyzed at different levels.

    Level 1:
    This is the lowest level where you can prevent any disease to get sprout. Good exercise, healthy balanced diet-modesty in eating, modesty in desire, mental and physical disciplined life, ethical conduct, abandon bad habits like addiction to substance etc.
    • Here disease is prevented by healthy habits.

    Level2:
    Here is the stage where you cannot control your desire and underwent some unhealthy habits which results in experience of symptoms of arising of new disease. And the cure to that newly arisen disease is the self medication or First Aid. This is done according to the specialization of you and your family.

    Level3:
    here your desire as grown much bigger and relative disease also grown bigger accordingly. Self medication is not enough. You and your family would consult your family doctor to treat you.
    • Here yourself, your family and your family doctor discuss the nature of your disease and finds the cure for it. Here, the specialty of family doctor really matters.

    Level 4:
    Here your unhealthy habits have multiplied and so the disease also. The specialties of your Family doctor not enough so he brings the real Specialist nearby within the proximity of your town. Naturally there is flow of commission from specialist doctor to your family doctor :).

    Here yourself, your family, family doctor and the Specialist plays a cumulative effort to cure the growing disease. The expenditures for the treatment tending toward sky.

    Level 5:
    Desire crosses every limit and disease also at its peak state. You cannot bear that Expenditure. So your Officer comes into a picture. He recommends the Alien Specialist doctor to treat your disease. But here, he is not recommending but ordering you to get treated from Alien Specialist otherwise you won’t get medical reimbursement of whatever at least 50 % :(. See the irony here – Choice not yours and you need to pay another 50% bill from your own pocket :(. Of course the flow of commission from alien specialist to your officer plays significant role.

    If the specialist is indeed a real one you may get temporary relief. And rest of the life you need to be his slave from his lifelong prescriptions and his sky rocketing fees!

    LEVEL 1, 2, AND 3 ARE OFFSHOOTS FROM PRINCIPLE OF SOCIALISM. LEVEL 4, 5, ARE OFFSOOTS FROM PRINCIPLE OF CAPITALISM.
    Prevention of the problem to arise is the principle of Socialism.

    Create a new problem, allow it to grow and run behind the specialist for cure is the principle of capitalism.

    And finally the golden rule – “PREVENTION IS ALWAYS BETTER THAN CURE” stays forever.

  31. BangaloreBaba Says:

    EmptyMind, I have no idea what you are trying to convey by bringing “Socialism and Capitalism” in your whole recommendation of “prevention is better than cure”. I am even less comprehending about what “prevention” has got to do with the discussion we are having on this page.

    I am not sure what your final message is, but I am sure of one thing – socialism/communism was the greatest evil of the 10th century, and modern-day socialists/pseudo-socialists are the nation’s worst enemies.

    People with the socialist/commie mentality have sucked the blood of dozens of nations worldwide, including in India. Every nation that took up that vile agenda, ended up in the pits – look at the contrast between East and West Europe, between North and South Korea. Look at what that poisonous ideology did between 1947 and 1991 to India, what a substandard state it left us in.

    If it were up to me, I would organize a real “genocide” against modern day quasi-socialists. That is the need of the hour.

    Kiran Batni, as you said, may the truth alone prevail. What you propose as a way to prevent Kannadigas from leaving KA, will have precisely the opposite effect. Like I said, I would not want to leave Bangalore for SF or London or Mumbai or Delhi. Your way will only force more and more Kannadigas to leave their cities and towns and move elsewhere.

    May the truth alone prevail, and may whatever provides maximum benefit to most Kannadigas in Karnataka, take place

  32. navollasa Says:

    @Nastika,
    “Karnataka folks in Mangalore, Udupi have flooded Mumbai & its suburb”

    – there is not even a direct train to mangalore from bangalore even now. i in my childhood wanted to travel to various parts of state but from bangalore never i had trains to any of kannada speaking parts. even now the best tourist parts like chikkamagalur or shivamogga has be taken by bus with unruly roads!!

    – they all become marathi there and telugu in AP. but on the contrary those who come here never become kannadigas. that is the gift we have got from union.

    “If you don’t find anything ridiculous in VISA idea, then its time you start building an army and finally separate from India”

    – yes that’s was the worst thing our odeyar and previous gen did. they didn’t find a place for men. today we have maratha infantry at belagavi and madras engineering at south but none for karnataka.

    result no representation for men. infights.
    women losing fertility.
    children malnourished.
    water table/ resources/ wild life reduced without any supervision.
    ultimately there is no one accountable to what’s going on!!

    today slyly our politicans release water to other states when everyone is asleep and after their gardens and fields get irrigated!
    and everybody calling their 30-40’s in bengloor as development.

    totally all the malnourished and bad looking people are kannadigas. this has made the natives to shy out and scared to speak kannada in colleges and at public places it’s reduced to barks and abuses.

    Totally to support Urdu hindi telugu tamil etc people we have lost ourselves.

    @Baba
    you are going nuts.
    driving taxis and selling lands for visiting malls is development!!
    dude where are you from?

  33. EmptyMind Says:

    Here is the hint to understand my analogy

    1. Desire – uncontrolled consumption of natural resources for developmental activities

    2. Disease – scarcity of natural resources like water, land, forest etc due to vast scale development activities.

    3. Patient –Mysore city and its people

    4. Immediate family – Mysore municipality corporation

    5. Family doctor- state government with its engineers from water distribution board

    6. Specialist doctor- local private engineers

    7. Officer- Central government with its water resources ministry.

    8. Alien specialist- specialist either from Somalia or Zambia or Jamshedpur recommended by central government.

    9. Medical reimbursements –funds from central government to Mysore municipality corporation to treat the disease of water distribution problem.

    Hope my point is reached every one.

  34. chetan Says:

    all job related problems can be solved if kannadigas become entrepreneurs. but it can’t happen suddenly as entrepreneurship was absent among kannadigas till now. with mentoring and zero interest loans from k’taka govt will atleast kickstart something, so a kannadiga entrepreneur will definitely prefer kannadigas for jobs over outsiders.

  35. Nastika Says:

    @Kiran Batni,
    You have raised 2 points:
    1) De-centralization
    2) Competence of local firms.
    Unfortunately these 2 concepts are mixed up in your article and hence the confusion.

    (1) De-centralization: I agree, India being a highly federal structure, more power rests at the central. Now that there is no threat to India’s sovereignty from within, the delegation of power process can start.

    (2) Competence of local firms: I think you have to dig deep, investigate, analyze and finally find out why JUSCO is competent, while MUSCO is not. And the next question, how MUSCO can grow their competence so that they can match JUSCO.

    ~*~

    @EmptyMind,
    I could not get your C++ analogy or your Level 1~5 analogy. Probably you have to give a simpler analogy :)
    BTW, reading your Level theory, I feel Level 1 is Capitalism and Levels 2~5 are different levels of degradation of Socialism. Reason being in Level 2~5, you are depending on Govt to help & cure your disease & habits.

    ~*~

  36. BangaloreBaba Says:

    Navollasa, I am not “nuts’ – I am practical, and I know what development we can expect in our country, which is still underdeveloped.

    What do you expect in a country where many people don’t have sufficient food to eat, and are dependent on rain gods? For them, a steady job as a driver is much much better than their earlier life.

    You are ranting about “malnourished Kannadiga kids” as though the situation is better elsewhere! You need to step out of your cocoon and realize that despite the malnourishment, we are still better off. Have you gone to the interiors of Orissa or Bihar or UP or MP?

    The intellectual dishonesty is staggering. People like you speak as though the rest of India has ganged up to impose “malnutrition” on Kannadigas. Huh.

    And what is your conspiracy on “women losing fertility”? You have the conspiracy-ridden mind of a Paki!!!

    It is your inferiority complex that you feel “all the malnourished and bad-looking people are Kannadigas”. The reality is that you feel Kannadigas are “bad looking”, and you are ashamed of your own self. And you invent all kinds of conspiracies to justify it. You rant against “evil national government”, “evil Supreme court” , “evil migrants”, and everyone else, because you feel inadequate about yourself. This is typical Paki-type mentality.

    I wonder how many more of the whiners have the same complex as a root cause for their rants!! Emptymind, Kiran Batni?

    Navollasa, for God’s sake, stop speaking for all Kannadigas. You embarrass the rest of us and make us ashamed. I am sure even EmptyMind and Kiran Batni will not agree with you that Kannadigas are “ugly and malnourished” compared to the rest of India.

    ***

    EmptyMind, I usually stop reading when I see “uncontrolled consumption of natural resources”, “developmental activities” “forests” “lakes”, and so on. :)

    All this talk is just a way to prevent others from achieving the kind of lifestyle that you are fortunate enough to live. It is similar to the West lecturing India and China on pollution and carbon emissions.

  37. BangaloreBaba Says:

    Chetan, it is a misconception that “Kannadiga entrepreneur will definitely prefer kannadigas for jobs over outsiders”.

    Business speaks the language of money. We have thousands of construction contractors in Bangalore. The demand for labour is so high that they will employ anyone who works for reasonable wages – Biharis or Oriyas or anyone else. The labourers who work on BBMP projects in Bangalore (drain covering, etc.) are almost exclusively from Bihar/UP/Orissa.

  38. Brahma Says:

    Kudos to Kiran Batni for his analysis. Bangalore is a prime example where the city has been taken over by these unscrupulous business rats and rats from ouside who are spreading plague. There only agenda here is to rape the city and loot its resources to the maximum. Locals have become aliens in their own land. The culture, sentiments. have no value. Take the employment scenario, in bangalore being Kannadiga is a disadvantage (speaking from personal experience). If we dont wake up now, Mysore will go the the same way..

  39. Brahma Says:

    @Kiran Batni

    Your analogy of neighbour and spouse was too good….ROFL

  40. maisuru Says:

    @Kiran Batni ..

    During Subsidiary alliance it was paramountcy and it lapsed on the day British granted dominion status.

    On the same count what India celebrates Independence day is a sham technically as it got only a dominion status. Hope you know what it means.

    Despite IOA, the Status of Indian States was far superior to the one under paramountcy. But as Responsible Govt. was ushered in most of the Indian states, the Rulers were reduced to being mere figure heads like British monarchy. Yet, if the people of the State ( say: Constituent assembly of Mysore ) had refused to adopt the Constitution of India on or after 25-10-1949, there was nothing that the New Republic Govt. could have done- IOA not withstanding !

  41. Nastika Says:

    @chetan,
    An entrepreneur would want best talent at a reasonable price. He/she doesn’t care about your language (unless required for business he/she is in). So an entrepreneur creates jobs but not necessarily employees only those who are in Karnataka for at least 15 years,
    (But KIADB & other local labour laws requires any firm to provide some % of employments to people who are residing nearby the firm).

    So the solution is to improve quality of education in Karnataka, so that people of Karnataka are able to grab all the local jobs for themselves.

    ~*~
    @navollasa,
    The official definition of a localite is that he/she must be resident of the State for 15 years. So you have 15 years to ‘turn’ a migrant into a localite. In 15 years, you have to
    – Teach working Kannada
    – Ensure their kids study Kannada atleast at a minimum level (so all schools in Karnataka must teach minimum Kannada as language till 10th, otherwise close those schools)

    If you don’t do it in 15 years, then they will win elections and will frame policies that suit them.

    ~*~

  42. navollasa Says:

    @Baba,
    just because other indians are more malnourished are we made the ‘balipashu’ – exactly that’s the problem. if northern states double their population and send out the migrants – lo we are malnourished – we are the sufferers to support them and then take away water and food.

    density of population is less – that’s our lifestyle. why are you coming and competing with us. sterilize whole UP bihar bengal – who cares?
    they are still better off with himalayan rivers.

    if we ask for river interlinking they will come up with all stats of elevation and this and that cannot be done and things like that.

    if they are still malnourished i can safely tell its not because of us.

    why are you migrating and affecting our lifestyle with limited resources. we have our own plans of growth and lifestyle why do you people impose the way you do?

    judiciary , parliament , defence , rivers , resources everything is in north – there is dearth of any representation indeed no one is interested. is this not enough to ‘thika muchkondu’ live in your country.

    why do you want to impose national language, impose mining , migrants, labourers all under nation’s name . first improve the land nourish kids , develop utilization of resources then migrate .

    if we had stable govt like delhi for last 20-25 years , if kannada medium was imposed, enterpreneurs and govt had worked hand in hand without ‘sacrificing’ to cause of migrants and India, – the already prosperous mysoor state would have developed to first world.

    coming here for profits, looting state , imposing alien languages and barking that everywhere its the same so you also should be like this – what kind of bullshit is this – this is nothing short of Tuglaq’s invasion.

    @Nastika
    its not 15 but already 50.
    i am in delhi and i speak hindi . i see doctors and schools here have hindi as de facto standard. engineers are almost loafers speaking mc bc lingo. women are substances. there is a great punjabi-up/bihari divide but a lingo gets them together.

    you are a gulte and know kannada live in bengaloor. why can’t you stop debating against kannadigas after all these years? this is what is called evil.

  43. Rajarshi Roy Says:

    Dear Mr. Kiran Batni,

    This is in response to your reply on 28th May. My apologies for the delay in responding back.

    When I said that business and commerce don’t know any linguistic and ethnic boundaries, what I meant was businessmen will migrate wherever there is money to be made. That has been the case since centuries – whether it be Arab traders or Gujaratis migrating to erstwhile East Africa or the Marwaris of Jayanagar in Bangalore.

    Finally, I, personally, have never identified with this “son of the soil” sentiment which – to me – is nothing more than an euphemism for protection. Blurring of boundaries is inevitable – I find ‘Globalization’ to be a cliche – whether we like it or not. Again, personally, I find nothing wrong in it – in fact this is how human civilizations have grown, matured and evolved – as long as a dominant narrative doesn’t swamp out existing cultures and heritages. This is the reason why colonialism can never be considered as a factor which enabled the evolution of human civilization.

    To summarize, I have differing opinions on most the arguments put forward by you – not because I am a benefeciary of the status-quo – but for the reasons mentioned above. And certainly autonomy will not change things unless we can build a truly anarchist society and such a society will definitely not be based on cultural, linguistic, ethnic, caste, class, religious and other affliations but on the shared bond of being a human. So, the whole argument about migration will become moot. Well, all these may sound like Thoreau’s theories but I personally would like to live in a world dreamt by Lennon in “Imagine”. :)

    As an aside, my Bengali brethren back in Kolkata have similar sentiments about Marwaris who dominate the commercial landscape of Kolkata – from taking over old heritage buildings to build malls to that cash-cow called real estate. I don’t find this to be a reason to have contempt for an entire community. Our folks have always been happy to watch plays for the proletariat at the Academy of Fine Arts instead of managing the till at the shop. Nothing wrong in that as well. Let each one do what they do the best.

    Having said this, I also believe that all migrants and ‘outsiders’ should respect the local culture and language and be sensitive to the locals. In Bangalore, we (I mean the non-Kannadigas), can surely begin by learning the language. I agree that most north Indians not only don’t make a genuine effort to learn Kannada but are often disrespectful and insensitive to the ethos of the city and community. Again, I guess this insensitivity becomes more stark because of the magnitude of difference between North and South. (C.N. Annadurai’s dream of “Dravidnadu” probably had this genesis at heart)

    I will stop here else my rant will go on. :)

    With Best Regards,
    Rajarshi

  44. chetan Says:

    @nastika, in that case let them copy the education system of andhra or tamil nadu, i read tn has introduced chess as a compulsary subject. do you think education is the only problem area? there is a dialogue in nagathihalli’s movie starring ramesh aravind about kannadigas taking transfer from rajajinagar to vijaynagar in bangalore.

    k’taka govt should also do more like conducting skill development camps in every village, etc. some visionary should take it as a challenge and do something.

  45. Vinay Says:

    Anyway, this discussion has meandered into all kinds of needless territory. I do agree with one thing, that further decentralization is very necessary. Decentralization not to the state level, but to the district and city level.

    Large cities like Bangalore, Mysore, Hubli, Mangalore, etc. should have more control over their finances and development. Devolution of powers to the city level is very necessary. This needs to happen all over the country.

    Centralized allocation and planning never worked, never will.

  46. Kiran Batni Says:

    Some clarifications and follow-up comments.

    1. Although I said Kannadigas should do most of the doing in Karnataka, it is not my intention to imprison them within Karnataka, or to prevent their free movement. That would be undemocratic. In fact, would be more than happy to see them go to other states and countries. But that is not happening. Kannadigas are gradually being ‘removed’ from the face of this planet, because all their doing is gradually being done by others, and those who don’t do don’t live. This is not to deny that there are some who are indeed going to other states and countries (I am also one such Kannadiga, but I am not blinded by my ego to consider myself as a representative of Kannadigas in this sense). My concern is the macro-level demographic attack on Kannadigas. This can be averted only by ensuring that Kannadigas do the doing in Karnataka- maybe not all, but certainly most of it.

    2. I like the direction in which @chetan is thinking. That is the kind of practical thinking that will get us out of the mess we are in. However, I agree with some commenters that the entrepreneur will ultimately not care whether the employee is Kannadiga or not. He should not, cannot, if he is a true entrepreneur, and if he is after money – which he should be. If entrepreneurship should develop, and if Kannadigas should not face ‘removal’, the only option is to delay the introduction of industries into Karnataka in which Kannadigas cannot participate in large numbers. If these means the migration of ‘small numbers’ of Kannadigas outside Karnataka, there is no problem either for Karnataka or other states. And, of course, as @Nastika rightly argues, education must be taken up on a war footing.

    3. It is a good idea to convert migrants teach Kannada, etc., to Kannadigas as @Nastika suggests. Note that this also requires significant autonomy to the states, and the elevation of Kannada to the position of the de-facto language of education and industry. You can’t convert a migrant into a Kannadiga when the situation is that everything can be done in English. This is a world of cutthroat politics and commerce, and there is no time or value for useless bells and whistles.

    4. Note that MUSCO is not a real company. Part of the problem is that there is no MUSCO. So the question of improving its services does not arise. JUSCO’s are pouring in at such a fast pace, and there is so little focus on indigenous growth of industry in Karnataka, that even the urge to create MUSCOs is dying. Some think this is part of the India growth story, but I say death to that India growth story which depends on the death of Kannadigas.

  47. BangaloreBaba Says:

    navollasa, first of all, understand that you are talking to a Bangalore Kannadiga, and stop addressing me as “you people”.

    I am one who is completely opposed to imposition of any “national language”, so take your preaching elsewhere.

    And you are conveniently slithering away from the assertion that you originally made. You said that all bad-looking and malnourished people are Kannadigas. Now you are talking of what might happen in the future. Why do you lie? Why do you not have the courage to own up and accept that you made stupid comments?

    And you have the guts to babble about river interlinking? Ley, muchkondu kuthkoLo! At the present moment, the people who are most opposed to river interlinking are not the so-called “North Indians”. There was a debate in comments in churumuri some weeks back on river interlinking: https://churumuri.wordpress.com/2012/04/05/if-its-summer-its-time-for-a-nice-cauvery-row/

    Now go and yell and Dr. Ramesappa and Doddi Buddi and the other anti-interlinking commentors there that they are anti-Karnataka. Huh.

  48. Kiran Batni Says:

    Dear Mr. Rajarshi Roy,

    Thanks for your reply. What I like most about it is the decency with which you put forward your opposition. If only all critics were like you!

    I had anticipated your statement about the Arabs, Marwaris, etc by saying that businesses cross linguistic and ethnic borders from the point of view of victimization. That is, the victims tend to belong to multiple linguistic and ethnic groups. Indians during British colonization (which began as trade, and which continued together with trade) are a classical example of this: they were multiple linguistic and ethnic peoples, all victimized by trade.

    I even have the theory that the victims of trade have necessarily got to be different (in some sense) from the beneficiaries. So, crossing at least one diversity border is essential for victimizing someone in trade.

    You will probably object to the term “victims of trade”. By that term, I refer to those who lose capital in every trade transaction, and unknown to them, are overpowered by those who gain capital in every transaction. An example for such victims is a villager who buys mobile phone currency, TataSky, Lays potato chips, etc., by selling land.

    You say all migrants and ‘outsiders’ should respect locals, their language, and culture. I agree. But I also believe that such respect is incompatible with the migrants’ and outsiders’ interest in reaping harvests in trade and commerce. Firstly, because their trade and commerce activities are seen as having nothing to do with the locals’ language or culture. Secondly, because the beneficiary in both trade and war must essentially perceive a diversity border between himself and the victim. The human being in him makes it impossible for him to countenance a kindred soul being victimized by him.

    By the way, I also don’t find anything wrong with Globalization. I find everything wrong with Global and even all-India trade in which some people can only participate as losers. And being a Kannadiga, I am intimately aware of how badly it hurts to be forced to play as a loser.

    ***

    @ Brahma,

    Thanks for your kind words.

  49. BangaloreBaba Says:

    And the worst enemies of the poor rural Kannadigas are the hypocrites who scream that only Kannada education should be provided, and no English. Just like every cow-piss connoisseur in the Bimaru belt with his Swadeshi chest thumping is the worst enemy of the illiterate masses in UP and Bihar.

    Never mind – every poor person in the state – nay, in the country – is jostling to get English education for his kids.

    The hypocrites who sit sipping by-2 kaapi in Sadashivanagar and have these useless pseudo-intellectual discussions should be asked to first translate the masses of English technical literature into Kannada. From thermodynamics to aerospace, from chip design to nuclear power generation.

  50. Nastika Says:

    @navollasa,
    We haven’t met but you think I am gulte? Its clear that you are shooting in dark. FYI, my mother tongue is Kannada. I learnt English & Hindi at school. I have lived since birth in Bangalore and didn’t learn any other language.
    Oh yes, you have a bigger problem. You are a migrant in the state of Delhi and you are ‘worried’ about migrants in the state of Karnataka? I suggest you keep yourself to your adopted state and leave Karnataka to its residents.

    ~*~
    @Kiran Batni,
    You are concerned that MUSCO doesn’t exist. Somebody in Jharkhand will be concerned that Dhoni cannot use ‘Jamshedpur’ Sandal soap.
    Grass is always greener on the other side :)

    ~*~

  51. Manivannan Says:

    The Arguments are meandering everywhere!

    But, one thing is clear. In a world where the barriers to movement and communication are fast collapsing, competition will get fiercer, whether Kiran Batni likes it or not, and only ‘efficiency’ will decide the survival in the long-run. Any type of protection is not sustainable.

    It means that, the ‘swadeshi’ theory can’t be applied even in the country level, leave alone state level! We can’t ban the knowledge and skill from permeating. To think that it will stunt the growth of local knowledge and skill, is misplaced. Local knowledge and talent will survive, if it has demand or if it upgrades itself.

    If we have to ban the ‘outside’ knowledge and skill, there cannot be any computer in India, as the chips are not made in India. Even if take 3 years to have a VLSI facility, by that time the world would have moved so much ahead, that we can never catch them! So, BangaloreBaba makes sense.

    So, lets leave all these ‘protectionist’ rantings, and get on with work. Only hard-work, and inspiration will provide for all of us, and keep us ahead. Jai Karnataka!

  52. chidu22 Says:

    Rajarshi,

    You have conveniently addressed what suits you while you are away from your state of origin. While you profess globalization,you are touchy about disregard for local culture as it is the case in your state of origin. You have conveniently blamed it on North and south divide. After the rabid state of TN, the only anti hindi protest happened in the land of Bongos ( the sound of it should warm your cockles).Sorry, you couldn’t hide your double standards.

  53. navollasa Says:

    Baba – i liked your anger. bring them on more like a kannadiga. that’s the whole essence of journalism. the truth.

    nastika – i saw ur posts on other form . you seemed like that. nevermind. i am a very good migrant here because i am a very good kannadiga.

    Baba and nastika –
    this is the entire problem.
    everyone here is from native land but acts like an outsider highlighting fear.
    that exactly is what’s happening – infighting everywhere because people start acting like outsiders speaking their mind.

    there was no intention to hurt you people but that’s the way i talk.

    @Manivannan
    we are never closing doors outside by using kannada medium. please note it. it just spreads to inner ignorant world.
    who said to stop learning english?

    as administrator you should be worried about what can people understand than bringing a utopian law.

    look at this – a migrant swami like nityananda if left unchecked can even take advantage of educated american madhwa brahmin kannada girl.

    now she got her voice flowing through a kannada channel. this native freedom would never be available by other mediums.

    a woman talking about these things in itself from a brahmin family itself shows the beauty of freedom in this land.
    be it darshan’s wife vijayalakshmi
    be it nurse jayalakshmi
    be it arati rao against nityananda

    these things are not common in other parts of india.

  54. BangaloreBaba Says:

    “You will probably object to the term “victims of trade”. By that term, I refer to those who lose capital in every trade transaction, and unknown to them, are overpowered by those who gain capital in every transaction.”

    Using complicated language and long-winded paragraphs with elegant prose, does not make an argument “sound”.

    We are still where we started. By this logic, we should stop buying Intel chips or Boeing 747s. We should “delay things” till India – no wait, till Kannadigas can build all these things themselves. We should “delay things”, and take “Swadeshi” to an even narrower level.

    I have a better idea. Let us go further back and be satisfied with bullock carts and other similar modes of transport, and we should all stay in our respective hallis and eat ragi mudde, maybe have kaapi and hurugaLu, which we can make in completely “swadeshi” manner, and belch in peace.

    In addition to GoK, maybe the OP can provide free consulting to the GoI and Armed Forces also, and ask them to “delay things”, stop buying fighter jets and stuff. Till then, the nation can survive with laang and macchu for all defence needs, thank you very much.

  55. Kiran Batni Says:

    @Manivannan,

    You’re misinterpreting me. I’m not asking for banning outside knowledge, skill, or computers, or what have you. I’m askng for the use of these things by locals, not migrants.

    @Nastika,

    You are also misinterpreting me. I’m not trying to say that Kannadigas have to produce everything under the sun. I’m only saying that Kannadigas (and other natives of Karnataka) have to produce everything that is produced in Karnataka. They have to be the main “doers” on their own land. Else, they will become extinct.

  56. EmptyMind Says:

    Manivannan,
    Sir, The word “efficiency” doesn’t have any meaning when you neglect “Natives” in the process of “Development” of his own “Resources”!. The efficiency is 100 % only when we adapt Mahatma Gandhi‘s ideal “Swaraj” model, where he emphasize more on “self governance” rather than “state governance”. Though Indian government discarded this model and gone miles ahead, the author is at least trying to come closer to this model. Just encourage him.

    Coming back to efficiency, it always asks for “Non dualism” or “Merging” in “phase” of its twin variables physically what we called “EFFORT VARIABLE AND FLOW VARIABLE” at different realms and different conditions. Those twins can be either “MIND AND BODY”, “MIND AND UNIVERSE” “VOLTAGE AND CURRENT”, “FORCE AND DISPLACEMENT”, “TORQUE AND ANGULAR VELOCITY”, “SUBJECT AND OBJECT” and here the author is just trying to merge “NATIVES AND THEIR IMMEDIATE NATURAL RESOURCES” in the process of Development.

    You should be knowing this- Realization of “Non dualism” or Advaitha is the only way to MOKSHA or ENLIGHTENMENT according to our Hindu philosophy :) this process of “non dualism” or “merging” different entities should start at inwards(inside mind) and then gradually grow outwards.

    If there is any action trying to bring Aliens to develop his(NATIVE) immediate natural resources, the efficiency decreases from the perspective of native people as this process drive them to indolence make them more dependent on aliens, exactly opposite to what we achieved on August 15th !

    Coming to your “protectionism” argument why constitution experts frames laws to comfort the elite migrants at the cost of natives whether it comes to education, judicial system, language policy, or land acquisition from poor farmers for private industrialization and even awarding national awards(reserved only for elites). Are these not protectionism?

    @Bangalore Baba
    Great going boss,You have been peter-repeater of the same thing again and again! Nobody is against studying English language as a subject. It is only with medium of language at which kid can get all scientific theories which should suppose to carry his/her identity. Otherwise he will be alienated from the subject what he is getting into!

    The advantage of elite people is that they have already created “identification” with English by the process of westernization which is largely absent from the native people. For the same reason it will be foolish to tell the natives to learn scientific theories in that alien language. Hence it will better to initiate the process of creating that identification by Evolution of “ Kannada with English”,again “Non Dualistic” merging of two languages which retain the identity and also new knowledge will be acquired in the process. This is actually a MIDDLE WAY” between the two extremes. Note the point this is not “Translation” process which is artificial and highly expensive process as told by you.

    This evolution process increase the EFFICIENCY of “Knowledge flow” by merging of twin variables “Identity language and knowledge rich language” :)

    Arguing that “Only English can be language of meritocracy“ is just like saying “Tendulkar as god of cricket!” note that he is just another carrier of meritocracy(related to cricket) but not cricket by himself! Even he retire tomorrow cricket still remains!! We will forced to forget him, Who knows tomorrow Virat Kohly will be new god of cricket :)

  57. BangaloreBaba Says:

    While Kiran Batni’s laments are old wine in a new bottle – the same old swadeshi/protectionist/socialist redux, what worries me is the mentality and attitude of people like “Navollasa”. This chap has been creating multiple screen names like “Arivu”, “Bengloor”, “Kaadu Manushya”, “Navollasa”, and has been posting constant tripe on this blog.

    I hope there are no more people like him out there. The attitude and behaviour of this person is the real problem – just blame everything on some random “evil outsider” and “evil migrant” and “evil national government”. Nonsense like “We would have become first world country if we had not had migrants” (while in reality, migrants have started flooding in in huge numbers only in the last 13-15 years). “the evil migrants and evil national government are not allowing stability in karnataka” (yeah right, as though SM Krishna, Drum Singh and Kumaraswamy were kicked out by “evil national government” – utter crap), “all bad looking and malnourished people are Kannadigas” (this chap is an ugly bitter old man for sure, why extend it to all Kannadigas?), the false notion of nationalism has made my bengaloor a small, narrow and cheap city. this makes one migrate to capital / other hindi belt and hence the brain drain and then again cribbing. (yeah, moan about evil migrants into Bangalore on the one hand, and then moan that people are migrating out of Bangalore).

    Such people just cause instability and unnecessary flux. They take away valuable energy that ought to be used in progress, and divert it into counterproductive directions with their constant victimhood complex and whining.

    The real problem is this “blame someone else, even if it sounds asinine” attitude that is beginning to take shape in many people in various degrees today. Maybe not to the same extent as in this fellow, but still, a worrying sign.

  58. navollasa Says:

    @BangaloreBaba

    so you want to blame yourself? go ahead. i too think the same. are you not the same vinay who blocks comments?

  59. BangaloreBaba Says:

    Emptymind – heh, when everyone on this page is having a go, talking all sorts of needless and off-topic stuff, from “delaying development” to “evil migrants denying Karnataka river interlinking”, I figured even I would join the party. :D

    Anyway, fact is, we have no viable alternative to English at the moment. The middle path that you speak of, the path “one level lower” than translation, is also something that needs to be artificially forged.

    And frankly, no one has time and energy to expend on these things. There are more important things to do, better battles to win.

    And emptymind – once again, no one is trying to “bring Aliens to develop his(NATIVE) immediate natural resources”, as you put it.

    The aliens come over because there is a demand for aliens. At the risk of repeating myself, let me say again, the same process will take place in Surat and Jaipur and Aurangabad and Coimbatore. They will get their aliens, many of them from Bangalore.

    Anyway guys, the kind of shitty discussions we are having on this thread, really exemplifies the problem that we have as a society and as a nation.

    Sure, there is a problem. The problem is that there is a category of people among the white-collar migrants into Bangalore, who have a false sense of superiority and entitlement, and who are arrogant and disrespectful. That is the problem, limit the discussion to that problem, and speak about what needs to be done to get around that problem.

    Instead of limiting oneself to the scope of the problem, people want to yap about all kinds of unrelated subjects, and take the discussion to completely different levels. Totally unnecessary.

    This is a unique phase in history, and we will never get this opportunity again, that we have in today’s era. This is the time to shut our traps and work. Put in hard work, and everyone in the future generation will benefit. All this inane nonsense that we are talking about, is simply counterproductive and a destabilizing/disturbing influence.

  60. Kiran Batni Says:

    @ BangaloreBaba

    I will reply to your comment of June 4 because you seem to have tried to abstain from indecency in argument. Let us not shout at each other, abuse each other just because we hold different views. Instead, let us behave like people in a democracy where debate is crucial. When debate becomes indecent, it cannot happen, and democracy cannot function.

    I agree that using complicated language and long-winded paragraphs with elegant prose, does not make an argument “sound”.

    But neither does using simple language and short paragraphs with inelegant prose make an argument “sound”.

    You must have quoted my entire paragraph, even if you had felt it was long-winded. The example I gave was of the villager buying sense-ticklers by selling land. You cannot remove the example and quote the theory out of context. I don’t think you believe that the villager gains capital by selling land and eating potato chips. No, he loses capital, and that is why he is the victim of trade.

    I don’t understand why you are not getting the point that I am only asking for delaying those things in which Kannadigas cannot be the main “doers” in large numbers in what happens in Karnataka.. Also, I explained to @Manivannan, and I will explain it to you again, that I am not advocating for using only “Swadeshi” stuff. I am only advocating use of anything and everything by locals, not migrants. Do you see the difference? I am asking for the people to be Swadeshi (understood as Kannadiga in Karnataka, not a Hindi, not a Gujarati, etc). I am not asking for inanimate things to be Swadeshi.

    You have not stopped stereotyping me. If only you could read calmly and suppress your urge to stereotype people, you would understand what I am saying.

    I don’t mind if you differ with me, but if only you could differ after understanding what I’m saying.

  61. BangaloreBaba Says:

    Kiran Batni, my point is simple

    1. The fact is that neither Karnataka, nor any other Indian state, has the required manpower to fill in everything that needs to be done in any given industry.

    2. If you set up industry – any kind of industry – anywhere in India, you will not find qualified people in required numbers from exclusively among the “locals”. This is true of Bangalore as much as of Jaipur or Mumbai or Kolkata.

    3. It follows therefore, that if you want development of the state and its people, you will need to accept that there will be an influx of a certain number of people from outside.

    And this does not imply “displacement of locals”. No matter what you say, it is a fact that the local people of Bangalore have benefited from the boom of the last 10-15 years. Almost every one among my relatives in the city has someone in “saaftware”. Everyone I know, is better off than he was in 1999. From the sweeper of my former apartment, to the shopkeepers in my locality, to the doctors and lawyers I am acquainted with.

    The Bangalore boom has benefited Bangaloreans immensely, in material terms. I agree however, that it has been accompanied with a lot of angst about traffic, pollution and a sizeable number of brash and boorish “outsiders”.

    Your solution, “delay things”, is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. As I said earlier, this is a unique phase in history, and we will never get this opportunity again, that we have in today’s era. This is the time to shut our traps and work. Put in hard work, and everyone in the future generation will benefit. The Chinese, with their single-minded focus on national development, without unnecessary and needless distractions, are doing better for their people and their civilization.

    Saying “delay things” is anathema to me. What we are seeing today in terms of material development should have happened yesterday or the day before. Delay things even more, and nothing will get done. Your prescription is a sure way to ensure that our people remain in a rut, backward and underdeveloped for the foreseeable future.

    ***

    navollasa, you poor old man – now I understand why you keep changing your screen name – LOL!! :D

    Rest assured, I am not among the moderators of this blog, I have no power to “block your comments”.

    It would be greatly appreciated however, if you put a little more sense and thought into your comments. Please do not post nonsense tripe. Post things which can be defended with logic and reasoning.

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