Ramayana, Mahabharatha, Upanishads & rape

Devdutt Pattanaik, chief belief officer of Future group, in a column in Star of Mysore on December 13, before the gangrape in Delhi became headline news:

“For most of human history, the woman’s body has been treated as man’s property, in reality as well as representation. So adultery (where the woman participates) and rape (where the woman does not participate) were both seen as insult to a man’s honour.

“In the story of Parashuram, his mother Renuka experiences a momentary desire for another man. For this crime of ‘thought,’ her own son beheads her on the orders of her husband, Jamadagni. She eventually comes to be associated with the goddess Yellamma, who is associated with prostitution.

“In the story of Ram, Sita’s abduction by Ravan so taints her reputation, and makes her the subject of such gossip, that Ram eventually abandons her.

“In neither story is the woman actually assaulted. It does not matter. The idea of being violated is terrible enough. The idea that what is yours has claimed another in ‘thought’ (Renuka’s story) or has been claimed by another in ‘thought’ (Sita’s story) is enough to deflate honour.

“When we want to put Hinduism on the defensive, and want to establish Indian traditions as patriarchal, these are the stories we tell. We do not tell stories from the very same scriptures that say something altogether different.

“We do not tell the story of Ahalya, a certified adulteress in some versions, a rape victim in others, turned to stone by her angry husband, who is cleansed and liberated by the touch of Ram’s feet. This is the same Ram who abandons Sita.

“Why is the patriarchal Ram cleansing the adulteress? No explanation offered!

“Why is the patriarchal Ram not remarrying after abandoning tainted Sita? No explanation offered!

“Why are plots that reinforce patriarchy given more attention than tales of grace and forgiveness (liberating Ahalya) and tales of commitment (refusal to remarry)?

“We do not tell the Upanishadic story of a boy who goes to Gautama for education and is asked “Who is your father?” to which the boy replies, “My mother told me to tell you that she is a servant and has served many men in every way. So she does not know who my father is. Please accept me as Jabali, whose mother is Jabala.” For this honest answer, the boy is named Satyakama, lover of truth, and made a student.

“We do not tell the Mahabharata story of Shvetaketu who is horrified to find his mother with another man. When he complains to his father, Uddalaka, the father says, “A woman is free to do as she pleases.” When the son questions his paternity, Uddalaka says, “It is not my seed that makes you my child, it is my love.”

“Yes, there are stories where a woman’s body is treated as property. But there are also stories where a woman’s body is not treated as property, where women are seen as sovereign of their own lives. Why are the latter stories not told in schools and colleges and by secular, Left-wing and Right-wing intellectuals?

“I feel there is an imagination that is repeatedly reinforced that ancient times were misogynist and modern secular laws will repair the damage. This is absurd. Jerks who disrespect women in particular, and people in general, existed then, exist now and (I shudder as I write this) will continue to exist, Khap or the Indian Penal Code notwithstanding. Can we please put the spotlight on the non-jerks please?”

Cortesy: Star of Mysore

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41 Responses to “Ramayana, Mahabharatha, Upanishads & rape”

  1. Objectivist Mantra Says:

    For god’s sake lets put an end this sensationalism. The rape incident was a crime and the culprits should be punished. They will be as they have already been arrested. There has to be a reform of our policing system, our judicial system and governance in general. But we can’t have these reforms by shouting in the streets and taking law into our own hands.

    Certain sections of the media are now resorting to sensationalism to sell extra copies of the thrash that they put into print. As journalists, you are not allowed to market crimes. You can’t make money by selling tragedies to the people. You have to present news as it is and then let law take its own course.

    Here the journalists have turned into activists. Once you are an activist, you loose your journalistic balance and you become part of a screaming, shouting mob. A mob is ALWAYS WRONG and always succeeds in doing more harm than good.

    Please tell me if a man returning home at 11 PM after work is beaten up or killed by goons who are after his money or mobile phone, is it not as bad? So many people are being murdered, but the media is making it seem as if in India every man is a potential rapist.

    The big media houses have lost all their credibility in eyes of people who expect a degree of balance in the news that they read or see on TV. The bottom line is that the media (the top editors, publishers and journalists) are as corrupt as morally lacking as the politicians and the bureaucracy.

    We don’t have free and fair media in India and perhaps in rest of the world any longer….

  2. Deepak Says:

    Excellent post. And it is very very refreshing to read such a post on this blog, because we only see Hindu bashing posts usually!!

    Past is past, to rake up stories from the past and whine endlessly is a waste of time. We need to look to the future and see what can be done to reform laws and judicial systems.

  3. Vishal Says:


    Your tag name suggests that your worldview is based on some second-rate fiction written by a third-rate philosopher. Thankfully, our world does not need idiots like Roark and Galt to “save us”.

    Protests act as catalysts in expediting reforms. This has happened all over the world and is now happening in India. Whatever the ends maybe, protests help in gathering attention.

    In this particular case, it is more than justified. Rapes are a routine in this country but seldom has an incident evoked such a response. If this helps in better laws and better policing, it has served its purpose.

    I am no fan of the Indian media – they do feed on sensationalism. However, in this case it is more than just sensationalism at work. It is genuine anger towards a horribly indifferent political establishment.
    We have a PM who barely speaks even when the occasion most warrants it. All he can make is a cursory statement and that too after so much protest. I cannot think of a better example of a moder-day Nero than MMS.

    It has taken a long time for a country to wake up against horrific crimes. It should have happened ages ago. But, better late than never.


  4. Natasha Says:

    What Mr Belief Officer did here is a nice play of language. But it doesn’t change anything. Pattanaik is in effect talking like a khap panchayat head. All the examples he cited from the scriptures are indeed seriously misogynistic. He just inverted them to conform to his worldview. He just turned vice into virtue. And Churumuri, of course, has always and will always stand by anything Mysore — doesn’t matter whether somebody has written crap.

    In this age, please try to leave your narrow regionalism and stop mooing like the grass-eating cow.

  5. Kshitij Rawat Says:

    That’s why I like Krishna. His behavior with women was commendable. He actually respected them.

  6. hklrao Says:

    The story Ramayana, Mahabharatha and the current Rape published by Churumuri is very interesting and thought provoking, daring .

  7. Balaji (@balajiworld) Says:

    is it possible that the liberated women in these stories were indus-dravidian? According to Iravatham Mahadevan, the water nymphs (apsaras) of the indus-dravidian cities survived and found mention in the aryan language texts of the later times. Celebrated Aryan men (vedic rishis) often had relationships with these apsaras.

    aryan women (Sita being prime example) were perhaps subjected to manu smriti while indus-dravidian women were free and later lost their social status?

  8. biotechnologist2020 Says:

    Devdutt is free to interpret stories as he wishes…when did Ahalya become a certified adultress….she was cheated by Indra? When did Sita become a prostitute when she was abducted by Ravana? Ravana had the curse by Brahma that if he ever touched a woman in order to violate her, he would burst into multiple pieces, and that he must ensure that the woman (Sita) should become his wife first.

    Mr. Patnaik makes money to make stories and their false evaluations, just like Max Muller who torched our history and made us slaves for ever.

    The truth and the final message of our stories is: whether we have been able to keep our honor alive. In every case, did the perpetrators were brought to death?

    Why does not Patnaik derive guts to write that there should be a much stringent laws to honor women?

    I appreciate his writings but he may not be right always. Vedas have given equal rights to women, but we lost it when we were under seize by the foreign forces.

    The word “property” is utterly disgustful. Infact our women trusted us in such a fashion that they were diced upon. No body gave Yudhisthira the rights to put his wife on dice, which he did? This story can be evaluated by Mr. Devdutt to justify when we hear of women being sold out in poverty.

    True, adultery did happen but that was a sort of treachery in every case. Rapes were initiated with invading armies, and I am sorry, my dear Delhi has been raped many a times in history by Tamerlane, Chengiz Khan, and the others.

    Parasurama is a special case in Indian mythology who has done penances in order to satisfy others. But he’s been the one who gifted Srikrishna the Sudarshana Chakra to fight the evil when they met at the ashrama of Rishi Sandeepani.

    He is one person in Indian mythology who mastered the art of super-psychonic forces to create many energy missiles, and had the ability to ‘teleport’ an entire live body. Just check what wiki says about the Sudarshana chakra.


  9. chidu22 Says:

    The problem across the country is the cultural beliefs in the society with regards to role of women. It’s further compounded by lack of education and exposure to the modern world and beliefs. The so called English educated (read JN) who took the reigns of power from British betrayed the nation, instead of instilling honesty , sincerity and ethics of good governance, they became the rulers rather than public servants. All the ethics of public life , social security and welfare were systematically eroded for personal greed and richness. Complete overhaul of the system from top to bottom is the need of the hour, rest will take care of it self.
    Male of the species will remain male unless they civilize.

  10. Debashish Chowdhruy Says:

    …Many thanks for this post…many thanks…

  11. AdithyaHK Says:

    Devdutt is right in saying we must pick affirmative bits from these epics, but people associate themselves with the protagonist rather than the aid characters.
    When Ram brothers can spite the face of a girl who wanted to marry them then inebriated off-duty bus driver Ram Singh and co strongly believes that it is their right to bludgeon a woman who was out at 9.30pm! wearing jeans that too with a guy.(apparently Delhi rapists were beating the girl questioning why was she out in the odd hours of 9.30pm, sort of moral policing)

    This is the mindset of India, especially bollywood which portrays this mentality promiscuously and in designer clothes, it has named it ITEM NUMBER, generally it believes female lead of the movie shouldn’t do item number, it’s always the job of cameos. Any forward thinking bolywood actor or all of them might say it’s women’s right to dress the way she wants, but in reality they limit it only to the item dancer, they feel Sonakshi can never do a item number in which she is the female lead it’s always Malaika or Kareena’s duty unless the male lead or the baddy fantasizes Sonakshi in skimpy designer clothes dancing to a vulgar pun.

    For Ram Singh & co any woman who isn’t their blood relative looks like an dessert that they can indulge in and if it is dark and if she is clad in a non Indian attire they think she is their sex commodity and in that psychosis vicious Ram Singh is invincible even to Sri Ram.

  12. Deepak Says:

    @AdithyaHK Why do you try to compare Lord Ram with Ram Singh? What’s wrong with you? Are you from LeT come here to provoke people?

    Get your facts right dude, Shoorpanakha’s nose was not cut because she wanted to marry Ram, her nose was cut, because she didn’t take the rejection and tried to attack Sita. Without knowing anything about mythology you jokers come here to write rubbish pretending to be intellectuals. The biggest danger to India comes from self-styled intellectuals like you.

  13. Akshay Says:

    This is the modern era, not 1000s of years ago. The culprits committed a inhumane act, and deserve and need to be punished for it, and to be made an example out of to deter future incidents such as these.

  14. praje Says:

    It’s nice to see that our puranas and upanishads had covered such vast topics as juvenile crime as well. Thanks to the “liberal minded secular intellects” we’re only copying the west.

  15. babuds Says:

    It is not important, where we picked up our ideas about women as property or since when we started them treating as dirt. It could be from Manu smrithi times or from Mughal era for all we know. The creators of Indian constitution, including the freedom fighters never gave a thought about the persecution of women in the Indian society. It is good that we gave special status for the oppressed classes/castes in the constitution. Why did the same empathy to women was not shown by our leading lights at that time?

    The later day acts or schemes targeting appeared specially for women at the behest of international bodies or UN programs, These empowerment schemes only targeted economic status of women, not their social status. Our teeming millions need to be educated about how women are socially oppressed in Indian society and the need to change the thinking process of the society. The Aids campaign (with foreign funds) has become successful in India. Why not a campaign to change the Khap thinking of society about women and girl child?

  16. adithyahk Says:

    A version of Ramayana says Shoorpanakhi’s privates were also mutilated for making sexual advances, The worry is a party always claims to reestablish the Ramrajya if they come to power, I just hope that they present an updated version if they ever come to power,

    Deepak if someone’s ideology doesn’t match with your’s you needn’t jump to conclusions that they are self-proclaimed intellectuals, jokers or something else. The biggest benefit for the Vedic or Immigrant Hindus in ancient India was that whomsoever they called demons, apes or monkeymen were of very liberal mentality they weren’t bellowers like you, look at you, you praise the author who has associated Yellamma with prostitution, a Goddess who apparently is the deity of a certain section of rural India. But you’re not okay with the deconstruction of Ramayana.

  17. Basavaraj Itnal Says:

    TJS George’s piece on the issue may be read with this churumuri post.


  18. Deepak Says:

    @AdithyaHK – Your comment clearly proves you are a pseudo-intellectual. If author says something about Yellamma, its a proven fact. So if you question a proven fact its right and if I question your insulting statements, I am a bellower? What a joke!!
    And your statement about Immigrant Hindus again exposes your agenda. Go and deconstruct anything you want, but if you insult Hindus be prepared for the backlash!!

  19. harkol Says:

    Hindu scriptures (veda to Vedanta, Upanishads to Purana) all have mutliple view points. They depict almost any type of life style and describe various belief systems. Even atheism is part and parcel of our ancient philosophical legacy. This is what makes Hinduism different and great. It allows it to absorb newer thoughts more easily.

    For every Seetha, there is also Draupadi – one who had five husbands, one who was publicly shamed after one of her husband lost her (like a property) in a game of dice. But, after that event it is not her who is depicted to have been shamed, but Yudhistira, for having treated her as his property.

    As they say, Mahabharata – the longest poem ever written, contains almost all human emotions, instances of dilemma and probable life scenarios.

    So, It is up to us to choose what we choose to believe, instead of defining Hinduism in some iron-cast and enforcing that mold on others.

  20. Arundhati A Says:

    Indian media houses, especially some of the big ones, have become corrupt. It is an understatement and mis-representation to say that they seek sensationalism. Instead, they have sold themselves out to highest bidders. Sometimes, there bidders are foreign governments (especially in the case of South Indian media houses). Other times they are corporations (both North and South Indian houses are into this business). And few other times, they seek sensationalism to sell papers. The bottom line is money.

  21. Augustine Kuriapilly Says:

    Does any one with a perverted personality care for what the sages say. Does anyone, absolutely anyone care for the moral teachings of the scriptures. Even the stories mentioned in your piece may be used to justify their perversion.

  22. the colonel Says:

    As Reported:

    A bunch of young college and school kids arranged a peaceful protest march in Gurgaon around noon yesterday, in connection with the Delhi gangrape case. I noticed this young kid at the march because his smile was so sunny. As the marchers went along from Huda City Centre to Galleria shouting slogans, this little chappie was going up to by-standers, passersby, security guards at shops and buildings, handing them small folded chits of paper from a bag that he was carrying, smiling his beautiful sunny smile all along.

    I don’t know if the notes that he distributed will change the world and I don’t care. All I know is that seeing this sweet smiling little kid distributing small handwritten notes, made me want to hug him and cry. It was such a redeeming gesture connected to such a sordid tale of the city.

    At the end of the march I asked him if I could have one of his notes as a keepsake. He told me — still smiling — that they were all finished, the entire bagful of them.

    The ending point of the march was the Galleria, where many lit candles and some gave speeches. After the group dispersed I saw this kid pick up the trash, all the leftover candles, the scraps of posters and chart paper lying hither thither. It was then that I asked him if I could take his photo on my phone, to serve as a reminder of how much good still lay before us.

    I also asked him his name and age.

    Dev, 12 years old.

    Compare our Sordidness to DEV

  23. the colonel Says:

    Pranab Mukherjee, President of India
    Chief Justice of India, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of India
    The gang-rape of a 23-year-old student in a moving bus on the night of December 17 in the capital city of Delhi has triggered anger, outrage and shock amongst every citizen this country.

    The National Crime Records Bureau records 572 rapes reported from Delhi for the year 2011. This year 635 rapes had already been reported as of December 15, 2012, Rape is not a problem that afflicts Delhi alone. In recent months, we have seen a rising crime graph against women being reported from virtually every corner of the country including Haryana, Kerala and Bangalore.

    Each time a rape is reported, civil society reacts with anger and outrage, which unfortunately dies down and is forgotten, until the next time. The question to ask: what is the inflexion point? At what stage do we say collectively and in one voice: Enough.

    Many solutions have been offered in the light of this particular gang-rape and in the past. Some of these include:

    1. The setting up of fast track courts (as in Rajasthan recently) to ensure speedy trials.
    2. The imposition of maximum, exemplary sentence.
    3. The immediate clearing of all pending cases involving crimes against women.
    4. Immediate training and sensitisation of police force to crimes against women, including domestic violence, molestation and sexual assault.
    5. The immediate passage of pending bills that seek to protect women, including the Protection of Women Against Sexual Harassment at the Workplace Bill 2012 and the Criminal Law (Amendment) Bill 2012
    6. Consultations with the Ministry of Human Resources to see how best to address the issue of sensitising boys through the school curriculum.
    7. National-level, open consultations involving civil society and other stake-holders on how best to tackle the growing misogyny and hostility against women as well as rising crimes against them.
    8. Ensuring safe public transport for all citizens by installing CCTVs and conducting due diligence of employees including bus drivers, cleaners etc.

    Despite having so many women in positions of political leadership, a survey by TrustLaw found India to be ranked as the worst country in the world for women. At a time when women are increasingly claiming their rightful share of half the sky and asserting their autonomy and independence, the rising crimes against them are conducted with absolute impunity by criminals who have no fear of the law.

    We are writing to you in the hope that you will direct government and judiciary to take special note of the escalation of gender violence and work together on a priority basis to implement the measures detailed above.

    Lack of gender justice, lack of fear of the law, police and judicial apathy, failure of governance and shrinking public spaces is a matter of grave concern, not just for women but for every citizen of this country.

    [Your name]

  24. the colonel Says:


    Sheila Dikshit, Chief minister, Delhi

    Sushil Kumar Shinde, Home Minister

    A 23-year-old woman continues to battle for life in a Delhi hospital after being gangraped, beaten and thrown out of a moving bus on the night of December 16. The crime has outraged the nation and put pressure on the government that the culprits be quickly brought to justice and swiftly punished.

    As many 635 cases of rape were registered across Delhi till December 15 this year–a record of sort in six years. Cases of molestation have also seen a rise as 653 cases were reported in 2011 against 601 cases in 2010.

    With this petition, I urge Delhi Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit and the Union Home Ministry to set up fast-track courts for speedy justice in rape cases and severe punishment for rapists.

    [Your name]

    Call the following Numbers

    The Presidents Office : 011 2301 5321

    The Prime-Minister : 011 2301 7957

    The Home Minister : 011 2301 2312

    Ask When the following will be done:

    1. Fast Track Courts To Deal with Rape.

    2. Clear ALL Pending Rape Cases.

    3. Stricter Rape Laws.

    4. Take Action against all Police Officers and Ministers who make statements justifying Rape.

    Action to be taken against all cases pending or action taken since 1978 as PER THE NEW LAW.

  25. the colonel Says:

    If you wondered why Abhijeet Mukherjee never made it to mainstream politics and should be prevented from reaching it, you have your answer.

    “dented, painted women”

    “You cannot force me to change my beliefs,”

    “I am shocked at my brother’s statement, my apologies on behalf of my brother,”

    “My father would not be happy with this statement. I am quite surprised that my brother made such a statement,”

    our male leaders and our women leaders as well who seem to find it incapable of supporting women if it comes in the way of their administration of extension of rule.

  26. the colonel Says:

    An extract.

    The UN General Assembly resolution on the Declaration of the Elimination of Violence against Women (1993) is very clear:

    “Violence against women is a manifestation of historically unequal power relations between men and women, which have led to domination over, and discrimination against, women by men and to the prevention of the full advancement of women; and that violence against women is one of the crucial social mechanisms by which women are forced into a subordinate position compared with men.”

    And obviously in his growing up years and public life, Mukherjee-junior didn’t get his values and norms right. It is a failure of his family, community and society. Interestingly, Times Now reported that his sister didn’t share his views. Another example why, within the family, there should have been more focus on Abhijit as a male child and as a teenager, regarding his views on the opposite sex. Global research shows that masculinities are not static and men’s ideas over manhood evolve over time.

    It is indeed shocking to note that such sexist remarks came from a politician whose father is the President of India. India is a signatory to all the right-sounding international conventions on human rights and gender, and our politicians and bureaucrats are so enthusiastic about international conferences.

    Whatever they do in those flashy conferences, both abroad and at home, the son of our first family perhaps has never heard or understood what Cairo Consensus or the Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action meant when they stated that “men can provide positive role models for boys and young men, based on examples of shared mutual responsibility with respect to parenthood, sexual and reproductive health and family life.”

    Equality of women and men is articulated even in the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which had an Indian providing drafting inputs.

    There are umpteen research studies which show why it is not the women’s responsibility alone any more to change their unequal status in society, but also that of men because they control politics, institutions and resources. And more importantly, they are the primary perpetrators of the violence against women.

    The Congress and his family should take the responsibility of urgently educating Abhijit so that he becomes a role model for Indian men and not an anachronistic embarrassment on national TV or an inspiration for budding Pramod Muthaliks. Once he is ready, he should read this document (will be a bit tough for him given his present understanding of the issue) by an expert group of the UN on The Role of Men and Boys in Achieving Gender Equality.

    “To move towards a gender-equal society often requires men and boys to think and act in new ways, to reconsider traditional images of manhood, and to reshape their relationships with women and girls. Changes of this kind are already happening in many parts of the world, but not in all situations or with all men and boys.”

    As of now, Abhijit and his political India is an example of the last sentence.

    and finally all i can say is Nammo India

  27. harkol Says:

    Has anyone figured, what exactly he meant by the word ‘dented’. I can’t understand ‘dented’, even if I could figure what painted meant.

    Perhaps he thinks women are cars? Or is he using a metaphor for something more absurd?

  28. adithyahk Says:

    If somebody is not comfortable in constructive introspection of epics that have been imposed on the nation, first thing they must do with their peer and seers is to request the govts to remove these stories from being part of the curricula of school and universities and should keep them with in the sanctums of their temples & houses.

    But if they want us impart skills from these texts we also would love to let know the nation what are the bits that need to be unlearnt.


    I think Arthasástra of Kautilya.’s this chapter best read on this issue http://shanknaad.wordpress.com/2012/12/24/hindu-law-on-sexual-intercourse-with-immature-girls/

  30. the colonel Says:

    Nirbhay no more

  31. Deepak Says:

    Problem is you feel abusing Gods is constructive introspection!! If your knowledge is so miniscule, go ahead and introspect all you want!! But if you have real guts, don’t take soft targets like Hindu epics – take up works of other religions and apply your construction and deconstruction theories – you will be amazed by the results and reactions!!!!

  32. Kesi Says:

    By this time next year, it will be business as usual corruption,nepotism, the society mired in the same kind of scandals etc.. The government of any party knows how to handle these protests which they know will not last. The parliament will pass anti-rape laws and they know laws have to be implemented by the police, who are corrupt to the core just like the politicians who protect them. These rapists would have been hanged. Sonia and Nehru dynasty will claim they met the demands of the people, and one fine day Singh will retire and Rahul will become the PM assuring to protect the women, the Congress having won the elections. This poor girl’s family will be generously compensated (rightly so). These protests will be long forgotten. Corrupt politicians will march on. I do not think the hundreds of Gods and Godesses can cure the ills that India is afflicted with.

    Will a further partition of the country across the Deccan with the Southern States forming one country and all the Northern ones forming the other, with the rationale that the South is more governable with stronger laws and enforcement? Just a thought.

  33. sr Says:

    Now what happened in delhi was wrong ..but surely it cant be linked to Hinduism ..without Justifying many worse crimes have occured in west in name of religion (i can give you examples..search Crusades…Bible blames Eve as listening to satan etc) Do You know That Inspite of Lord Ram Bieng called Maryada Purshottam and Ideal ruler he is not given as example of Ideal Husband (It is Lord Shiva whom women Worship to give them ideal husband like him)….coming back to Lord Ram…the mere fact that he took back Sita shows his intent…he was so bothered about his Citizens welfare that during one of his Night walks in disguise to learn about problems of his citizens that he happen to over hear Dhobhi preaching his Wife…and since he has to fulfill his duty as ruler which was given precedence over his duty as husband that he let Sita go…but the fact that he Sita left ,saddened him and he was left shattered is not bieng explained….and dont give any version of ahalya…even if some version has it in differnt way its meant to show something(Forgiveness even if Ahalya was wrong)

  34. adithyahk Says:

    India have declared itself a secular state and for god’s sake it should live up to it.
    Students need to be taught what is right and wrong according our constitution from an early age rather than religions which by itself are very obscure in nature and leads one nowhere.
    But the one’s who frame syllabi seems to be under the impression that, just teaching when the Constitution was ratified and by whom, is enough, they must also bare in mind that a secular state can be formed only by keeping religion at bay, at least in academia.

    if anybody can’t digest this fact please protest and change the constitution.

    isn’t it out of context to opine on other religion when the topic is only about scriptures of a particular religion. Other religious texts so far have not been imposed on us through our curricula, but in other democracies whenever a religious mindset tries to lurk in to the mainstream through syllabi they have received the right kind of treatment that they deserve.

  35. Deepak Says:

    India is no secular state. The makers of our constitution included towering legends like Ambedkar, Nehru, Patel, Azad and yet they did not include the word secular, why? Because they knew that concept of secularism was evolved in Great Britain because the Queen was also head of the church. This concept was not at all relevant in India.

    It was the great dictator Indira Gandhi who included the word secularism in the constitution. BTW : She also included the word socialist. So shall we disband private ventures and get back into the license raj?

    The biggest hypocrites in this country are those who quote consitution and secularism. Constitution calls for uniform civil code – will so-called secularists back it? Constitution calls for banning cow slaughter – will secularists back it? Secularism is the biggest joke and it is better we not talk about it.

    And coming back to the topic, no issue at all in discussing treatment of women in religion, but when self-styled secularists compare Ram Singh to Lord Ram and spout junk about deconstruction, they should be ready to take it in the chin!!

  36. Utpal Says:

    Hinduism is all about duties and responsibilities that a man has to follow during his life. There is no obvious mention anywhere in the scriptures about love, compassion and understanding between people.

    If the womenfolk of India wants any empowerment, they have to challenge the religious establishment of primarily, Hinduism. Every custom and traditions of the Hindus are dilligently followed and kept alive by the womenfolk. If they refuse to follow these till they are considered equal with the men, then may be these establishments will wake up to teach the men some manners. People in India are very religious, even after committing crime after crime they can go to the temple or mosque or church to pray and go back to do crimes again.

  37. harkol Says:

    Utpal: Well said.

    Hindu Religion has some concepts that are relevant for current societies, and some parts that are clearly not. Those parts need to be chucked out, just like many social reforms of the past did.

    Defining Indian’ness on Hindu-Hindutva is entirely unsustainable.

    Same holds good for Islam, Sikhism or any other religion. They need reinterpretation and reform.

    Spiritually – human kind may long for a belief system. And religions provide a basis. But, changing belief system is extremely important.

  38. Surya Says:

    don’t question the Hinduism ,everything which was happened in the past was abides to “Dharma”.. better read the history and analyse what was happened..

  39. harihara Says:

    Devadatta Patnaiks selected examples of thought processes and reactions on sex based interactions itihasas and puranas onthe one hand and the upanishads on the other sgow regimented thinking on the one hand and free and progressiuve /evolutionary thinking on the other . regimented thinking is based on love for power ehere as upanishads show the way for seeking meaning in life and truth and love. Very incisive . All thgese establish that the knowledge called Hinduism is holistic and evolving and it is nodogma . as such it whatever postulates of relation between matter and spirit exist or keep getting propounded from time to time in the past, present and future are all perceived alrewady by the sages and hence this cluster of knowledge called hinduism is
    pervasive and encompassing. incidentally rape in modern parlance is penetration without consent where as the cases adduced are those of love and making love -there is lot of difference


    universal and all pervasive

  40. Anonymous Guy Says:


    Careful there you pseudo-secularist (pseudo-hindu?).

    Or are you on the verge of enlightenment? Welcome to the dark side…

  41. Mrahi Says:

    Feminism says the world is patriarchal and male dominated. The flip side would be the world is matriarchal and female dominated. when feminist say women is the oppressed sex and therefore they deserve rights, is not gender liberation but gender entitlement. where the principal studies of women studies are to question the traditional female role. I strongly support that we question the traditional female role. nothing that we have now questions the traditional male role in society.History is something that sells to boys the traditional male role, the male role of hero and performer.every history lesson tells a boy that if you perform you will earn love and respect and that you will be seen on these pages, or if you fail you will be nothing, you will be invisible. To a boy,history is pressure to perform and not relief from that pressure. Feminism, to its credit, is relief from the pressure to perform the traditional female role and seeks to be outside its confines. To a boy, then, history reinforces that traditional male role and therefore because it reinforces the traditional male role it is the exact opposite of women’s studies.Women’s studies tell women that they have the right to what was traditionally the male role. nothing tells men that they have the right to the traditional female role, for example, the right for a dad to have equal rights to be home with the children while the mother financially supports the children and the husband.the fact that working mothers worked more hours inside the home, but no one told us that working fathers worked more hours outside the home. In essence, feminism taught us that God could be a she but not that the Devil could also be a she. It showed us the shadow side of men and the light side of women but it neglected the shadow side of women and the light side of men. And it neglected to acknowledge each side, each sex, has the shadow side and the light side within it. Feminism encouraged women to interpret men’s tendency to earn more for different work as an outcome of male dominance rather than as a symbol of male subservience.For a man, following money was primary, following fulfillment was secondary.For him, divorce also created a change; he still followed money to support his family economically,but after divorce he had no family to support him emotionally. but men are silent about atrocities on thm. They are becoming passive-aggressive. rather than confronting the female anger, men are increasingly feeling that their only form of relationship power is not getting into a relationship. Divorce has led to women changing because divorce has changed women’s source of income.It changed it from men only to some combination of men and work. Divorces did not lead to menchanging because divorces only increase the pressure on men to focus on income. It led to millions of men taking on five payments that are rarely assessed to women. After divorce men take on child support, mortgage payments on a home they no longer live in, apartment renting, alimony and dating. This led to men doing more of the same and therefore being more of the same. Men did not complain because the very core of male socialization is that when the going gets tough, the tough get going. Divorce led women to the primary fear of economic dependence and left men with the primary fear of emotional dependence even though both sexes experience an increase in bothtypes of dependencies. But it is much easier for the government to help the women economically than it is for the government to help the men emotionally. It is easier for the government upon divorce to require the man to give the woman money than to require the woman to give the man emotional love or sexual love. In the past men had to be cut off from their feelings or they would not be willing to die to protect the family and the community. So women had to fall in love with people who were inherently incapable of loving. In the future women are able to fall in love less with the killer and more and more with the nurturer-connector. In the past, survival, marriage, and the family all required the killer male. In the future, survival, marriage, and family will all require the communicative male.what was once functional role has become dysfunctional role. For example, when divorce would have led to starvation, societies were forced to make divorce a taboo. So since a family had no option but to work together, co-dependency was viable. Stage One functional.The ability of men to create technology that allowed people to get beyond starvation problems allowed people to have the freedom to say, “Is my husband somebody who is paying attention to me? Is this really love?” which allowed women to initiate divorces. Divorces then allowed women and men to say, “Wait a minute. I have to prepare myself to not be co-dependent, but to be independent.So once divorces became allowed co-dependency was no longer functional.

    Now lets move to rape, rape rate has actually been decreasing,until feminist changed defn of rape to include drunk sex, consensual sex & unwanted sexual activity. Forcible rape constitutes less than 4% of the violent crimes. Violent crimes of which men are the victim constitute 94%. So, what we’ve (society or feminsit ideology men )done is claimed that there’s an increase in rape when in fact what we’ve done is changed and broadened the definition. So, if we had asked that same question back in 1960 or 1950 we probably would have gotten even higher statistics along those lines. 74% of total rape case reported are false, this statistics is available with ministry and also with pune police. Below are some of the statistics which expose feminist myth and hoax. Suicides: http://goo.gl/Auz0s Male Victims=81,471 Female victims=45,680 (Total =127151) Male Victims=64%, female Victims=35% . men experience gynocentrism (exclusively women-centered advocacy & practices) & misandry (the hatred of, & prejudice against men). Historically, woman as victim attracts men. Man as victim repulses woman. for example, women drops handkerchiefs, that is, they played victims,this was a way for them to discover where the saviors (men) were located.When men drop handkerchiefs he himself have to pick that up. Women is not a child for example, we have defination in rape stating that consensual sex with false promise of marriage is rape, When 2 adults have consensual sex, it remains consensual. Introducing the marriage angle and making it a crime for men is a social crime. Its insane to do so and the judiciary must do away with its patriarchal mindset of penalizing men merely because they want to preserve the sanctity of marriage and want to discourage sex outside marriage.False promise of marriage is a myth! It can also happen that a man and woman are in a live-in relationship, and have sex under a romantic relationship which later turns sour and the woman traps the man because the judiciary is more than ready to send men to jail on this faulty premise of “sex on false promise of marriage”. Whereas courts also give respect to the choice of women to choose a partner post marriage (Manju’s case from Rajasthan- who left her husband and chose to stay with her lover with acceptance of court) and punishes only man in adultery. Also there are cases where women have filed impotency against husband citing physical dissatisfaction. It is established that sex is an important element in lives of women too. Just imagine when a lady just physically attracted to her male friend gets in to a safe unconditional casual sex (be it a one night stand or regular sessions) and later pursues him to marry her, taking him by an unpleasant surprise. On his obvious refusal she calls the intercourse in the past to be RAPE, (it is actually a RAPE of her male friend as the conditions are later laid down by her),one more defination of rape as drunk consensual sex. For example A couple, women and men, drink in the evening, say yes to sex, and then declare the following morning that she was raped based on the rationale that because she drank, she was under the influence and therefore, she was incapable of consenting.It basically denies that the woman made a choice to drink When people make a choice to drink and drive, we don’t say the accident wasn’t their fault because they were put under the influence. This are few example of exagerrated statistics of rape, not to tell about dowry harassment 98% dowry harassment cases are false and even SC had declared 498a as “Legal Terrorism”. Dowry death is one more hoax and created to fool the masses. The defn of dowry death is every unnatural death of women within her 7 years of marriage is dowry death by default and interestingly husband and in-laws are presumed to be guilty in eyes of law and they have to prove innocence, this is one of the only type in Indian IPC law which assumes men as guilty even before verifying facts and even before trial. All this things are exaggerated and men is silent sufferer , its time men should speak up against victimization.

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