Is ex-PM Deve Gowda guilty of ‘spot-fixing’?

Photo Caption

S. Sreesanth has only just gotten out of the clutches of Delhi’s hyper-efficient police for using a hand-towel tucked into his pyjama as a sign to his bookmaker friends that he will bowl a few bad ones, and….

And former prime minister H.D. Deve Gowda brazenly flaunts a towel on his shoulder as he takes guard at a cricket match organised by journalists in his home-district, Hassan, on Sunday.

What secret signal could HDD be sending?

Photograph: Karnataka Photo News

Also read: Across the line, feet wide apart, head still high

If only Robin Utthappa had played as straight

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53 Responses to “Is ex-PM Deve Gowda guilty of ‘spot-fixing’?”

  1. harkol Says:

    Signal?

    Same signal LK Advani tried to send by doing some weight lifting in a gym a while back?

    Mayawati has openly sent the signal, these folks are using other methods. Thankfully they aren’t doing a ND Tiwari to send signal!

    ಹುಣಸೆ ಮುಪ್ಪಾದರೆ ಹುಳಿಗೆ ಮುಪ್ಪೇ??

  2. Fernandes Says:

    Cricketer Deve Gowda is smiling because he knows that his clan will never be declared out, despite being off-stump, LBW or clearly bowled out! The pot-bellied so-called journo’s fielding so close to him are the best proof of his clout!

    While H.D. Revanna and Ramesh (sons of the former PM) are deep in various land and illegal mining scams with the court’s conveniently adjourning again and again, Leader of Opposition in the Legislative Assembly H D Kumaraswamy has got himself a, self-declared clean chit as well as a clean new Fortuner SUV of his choice, gifted by the canny Siddaramaiah, who knows how to keep everyone happy, while the treasury is already bankrupt with cheap, publicity schemes.

    As the photo signifies, Senior Gowda faces no googly’s or bouncers, because there are no bowlers in our state, thanks to the infighting in the clueless BJP combined with the ineptitude of the Congress’s economic policies and corruption.

    It may be mentioned the Lokayukta has filed a charge-sheet against Kumaraswamy over the denotification of 10.5 acres of government land in 2007, apart from various other corruption cases. Moreover, according to the former chief minister’s political secretary BJ Puttaswamy, two days before he demitted office, junior Gowda granted mining lease to Sai Venkateshwara Minerals, blatantly violating all rules and regulations. In turn, he got Rs167 crore in kickbacks from the mining company for his (Kumaraswamy) brother’s BSK trading company. Sadly, like all other corruption cases in our country, nothing ever happens and such cases drag on forever.

    Incidentally when Gowda’s bête noire Siddaramaiah has ensured that Bangalore’s roads are full of potholes and life-threatening craters, these days, our ‘mannina mommaga’ (grandson of the soil) Nikhil Kumaraswamy is vrooming around in a new set of hot wheels –the limited edition Lamborghini Gallardo LP550-2! The grandson of ‘senior mannina mommaga’ and ‘dearest mommaga’ of former CM H D Kumaraswamy has acquired the gift for a neat Rs 5 crore! The young turk , next batsman in waiting and getting ready to take the family political legacy forward by simultaneously dabbling in politics and business, is the first Bangalorean to own the limited edition model! While no one has any idea on what sort of taxes were paid or the source, the car has been registered with the RTO in neighbouring Ramanagaram district, Viz., the home constituency of Kumaraswamy.

    Like everything the Gowda clan is known for, the only road where the Lamborghini (fuel consumption: only 3 Kmpl!) can be driven at its maximum speed is the NICE Road built by Gowda’s other rival, master batsman Ashok Kheny!

  3. dr ramesh Says:

    Form is temporary, class is permanent.
    Inswing, out swing, legbreak or offbreak, — u come at me, I have the answers.
    This seems to be the message, one of the stalwart political leader, great prime minister India has seen, is conveying to his political adversaries.
    He is seen fighting out for protection of rights of karnataka farmers w r t cauvery river, next day he is seen in a remote village of sakleshpur reviewing the damage caused by man-animal conflict, next he is assessing the problem of pest infestation to coconut trees—- he is one of his kind leader.
    Leader who has his ears to the ground, reacts immediately to issues concerning the poor.

    If the son of a corporate honcho buys a car or builds a house worth 100 crs —- it is seen as a sign of coming to age of Indian economy, it is glorified as a coronation.
    A Bollywood movie star buys a 10 CR car—- it is announced that he is a youth icon, Bollywood is going places.
    But the son of a former CM, who also happens to be a business man buys a car— he is unfairly targete

  4. ತುಳುವ Says:

    @Fernandes,
    Very nice analysis. somehow you forgot to cover about 2nd wife (declared by her and accepted by media- no questions asked) of ‘Mannina mommaga’ and crores of properties registered in her name, where as her income cant even measure upto 10% of them!

    Interestingly, the media which made/making huge hues and cries about Yeddi and Shobs (I am not saying they should no make- i am only saying they should be fair by making similar sounds with everyone) has never covered it in right way.

  5. narayana, narayana Says:

    We, Indians, are far too lenient with these greedy, grabbing politicians who couldn’t care less about splurging Rs 5 cr on a car. Where did he get this money from? Some scam his father or grandpa is hiding from. A bit of Chinese treatment is overdue for these scoundrels- the Chinese Railway Minister was handed a death sentence for collecting bribes. Do this for a hundred families here and it will send a warning; the rest will pack up and leave for Italy or Switzerland or wherever. Good riddance.

  6. Anonymous Guy Says:

    Deve Gowda and family have been fixing match after match without any fear of laws. And supporters justify saying, other players also do it, so it is our gurus birthright. So sons can acquire own crores of property by any means, take second wife without divorcing the first, buy super-cars which arent even road worthy for our roads etc.

    And all the while saying we are sons of soil. Yammemukha vyagras.

    Fernandes, Hilarious stuff.
    Especially about the page 3 punk grandson and his shiny new Lamborghini.
    BTW how is the supercar taken to the NICE road? By helicopter?

  7. Lobo Says:

    @Fernandes
    Excellent article [, if I may say, while it is a sadly a reflection of our pseudo-leaders lifestyle, it is sorta humorous too!

    @dr ramesh
    Not sure if you are the actual controversial Dr. Ramesh we have all noted on this most popular e-zine.
    Aside to that, it is shocking to note that you are so ignorant & in-sensitive!

    I myself was amazed about the revelations that Fernandes mentioned, so did a basic Google search and found out that it is indeed all true!
    http://www.bangaloremirror.com/index.aspx?page=article&sectid=1&contentid=201307052013070501202734048233de8
    Perhaps, you can investigate more and enquire at the RTO in Ramanagaram. Trust me, it won’t cost more than a mere Rs 100.00 to get any zerox!

    Well, I guess you won’t bother; your post makes it obvious that 5 or 100 crores is nothing to you! Most probably you are either part of the clan or a PR/JD employee or definitely a ‘direct beneficiary’ or maybe another innocent/ignorant dodo who continue to vote for the family in the last few remaining pockets!

    Anyway, back to reality:
    We can all expect our senior opener, Deve Gowda, despite the obvious bandage in his left tow, to come ballistic on all cylinders in days to come. Only Fours & Sixes. He has more to gain!

    Faced with the harsh reality of losing a shocking amount of nearly Rs 6,000 crore to the implementation of popular schemes announced by Congress-I and CM Siddaramaiah, the current Govt is walking the tightrope to mop-up additional revenue.
    To those unaware, the extremely controversial and financially suicidal ‘one rupee a kg rice’ scheme, which promises up to 30 kg of rice to crores (read cong-I middle-men & local fixers), at a price that the original rice farmer himself can’t comprehend, will make ALL OF YOU CHOKE VERY SOON!

    For instance apart from petrol or diesel, buying houses, cars or wine/liquor may get extremely costlier from mid-July.
    Folks, the devastating budget on July 12 is not far away and besides increasing taxes like crazy, we can definitely expect a steep and record-breaking hike in commercial taxes, stamps & registration, motor vehicles and of course, excise!

    All past JDS and BJP’s welfare and industry measures will be scrapped soon. No drought relief fund and all that, only the popular Bhagyalakshmi scheme may have to be modified. Due to consistent pressure from CM flunky Mahadevappa, we can expect multiple toll collections on the Mysore highway, with the elusive promise of a future 6-lane highway!

    Perhaps it is time to remind all that the annual bill for Cong-I branded Re1/kg rice scheme is pegged at a staggering Rs 4,400 crore ! In the midst of all this, pls remember that the controversial and extremely canny CM has already ensured that over Rs 1,300 cr loan taken by Ahinda (his personal acronym & obvious swiss account for minorities, backward classes and dalits) group is waived!

    So in a nutshell, let us all forget about past mega scams or the mere 5 crore Lamborghini’s or 100 crore kick-backs in cash or ongoing-illegal mining’s…etc, this is our real Karnataka today!
    KARNATAKA UNDER CONG-I: RIPLEY’S BELIEVE IT OR NOT?
    Meanwhile, on a positive note, expect some pseudo promises in the budget, especially aimed at check-mating rivals like G Parameshwara, DKs & our off-stump Cricketer Senior Gowda! Also bluff on badly needed infrastructure for BLT like a Airport Train, Total and immediate ban on Water tube wells (except for genuine reasons) and restricted new 4-wheel registrations.
    While north Karnataka will continue to deal on their own with chronic draught every year and revenue rich-South Kanara can’t even have a proper, safe highway to Blr, expect the crooked, canny caste-obsessed CM will ‘announce’ that Mysore Industries Association (MIA) will have a Industry Facilitation Centre and a Helipad near the Infosys centre..etc.

    Just so that none of you are diverted, kindly note that it is merely an announcement across the stadium, for our courageous, feel-the-ground-Deve Gowda to bat-on before a night-watchman ;-)

    There will of course be photo-ops and foundation stones…etc..while the current state BJP team (still led by the most disgusting, corrupt K S Eswarappa and team) may latch on too…
    Like in all IPL matches, the strategic game goes on…
    Only a select few prosper, significantly extraordinarily.
    Until the final that itself is supposed to be fixed!

    Cricket and Politics in India are really made for each other ;-)

  8. Pulikeshi the Last Says:

    Dr, Ramesappa grants nothing but sixes to HDD even when his batting is just make-believe.

  9. narayana, narayana! Says:

    @ Dr Ramesh.
    What business was your illustrious guru in before he joined politics? What were his companies’ sales turnover and the profits? Were the taxes paid?
    If that ‘mannina maga’ was well endowed with landed property, the family’s ancestral property, curious to know the extent of it.?
    If the business was started ‘after’ his CMship, PMship, then you have some explanations to do. What were his/their annual salaries and perks as a cost to the government or the public? Could they have been enough to start a business that brings in crores today!

  10. chanakya Says:

    Hope Karnataka will never see a dirty politician like HD Devegowda and his ever worst sons. If people like them continue in Vidhana Soudha, Karnataka will see its worst ever days. This family will surely pledge our state….

  11. dr ramesh Says:

    Narayana,
    The Lamborghini incident — is symptomatic of a larger problem affecting the youth of India, middle and upper class youth in particular. Minds of youth are totally infested by materialistic ideas, they want to show off their riches, concept of austerity is gone. It is disturbing.
    ITS UNFAIR TO SINGLE OUT HDK’S SON.
    a famous pan Masala honcho gifted his daughter a 3 crore car— media hailed it as an achievement.
    Petrochemical giant has a house in Mumbai which costs over 1000 cars.— Indians believe it as an inspirational act.
    Many IT BT giants lead a royal life which would put even Richard branson, sultan of Brunei to shame, yet they are given central govt. Recognition, they are middle class icons.
    A Bollywood star spends crores of rupees on botox, hair transplant— he is awarded padma bhushan, padma vibhuushan and what not.

    Say,
    If the son of IT czar had bought a 5 crore Lamborghini ———
    IT ICON’S SON DRIVES A 5 CRORE GEM——-INDIAN ECONOMY ON A FAST TRACK.
    would be the headline.
    In simple terms, double standards .

  12. Gaby Says:

    Hallina daktre, please don’t mix up crass commercialism with corruption in public life. Where did the young man or his father or his grandfather get the 5 crores to buy the luxury sports car?

  13. Pulikeshi the Last Says:

    Ramesappa–

    As always, HDD and his sankula are at a delicious disadvantage. Don’t get no respect for their unparalleled accomplishments and service to us poor K’digas. Emperor Gowda was busy writing a tell-all autobiography about how he has devoted every moment of his life to service and how his enemies have made life unbearable to him. When is it coming out?

  14. Anonymous Guy Says:

    Note that double standards works in both ways.

    DG’s son’s lust and immorality, DG’s grandson’s rolling in ill-gotten wealth of parents etc. is justified by taking some other random example of actor and businessman.

    Some other law-breakers’ followers must be justifying using example of DG and HDK!

    Nice way to justify anything – someone else got away with it, so my gurus cant be singled out.

    The rot is deep indeed.

    Horaginavanu maadudhre maha paapa, nammavanu maadudhre ghana kaarya.

    DG and family will keep hitting sixers in fixed matches.

  15. Vinay Says:

    Dr. Ramesh:

    You are the only one with double standards here. The so-called “IT BT honchos” and businessmen are people with known sources of income. They run a business or are in a well-paying profession (actors for example), and splurge their known earnings on things like cars. Every nation has its share of super-rich.

    Your beloved HDD and co. however, earn their crooked money through devious and corrupt means. They have been leeching government money, siphoning funds, taking kickbacks, etc.

    I am sure you know the difference. Your love for HDD has made you blind to facts and fairness.

  16. harkol Says:

    Dr. Ramesh:

    >ITS UNFAIR TO SINGLE OUT HDK’S SON.

    Love is blind. But, looking at you, simple etc. I feel there may be other emotions that make one blind too!

    HD Deve Gowda, a farmer, and later a politician didn’t have huge assets till about early 90. He was ‘relatively’ a honest politician till that time.

    Then something changed. Between 1990-2010, the family has amassed thousands of crores. I believe it is the ‘generation change’ that caused it. Sr. Gowda was circumspect and played the game within some boundaries. The newer generation had no qualms about utter subvertion of system to build huge assets. The patriarch was complicit by his silence.

    To be able to afford a 5cr car for an youngster, a family needs to have net worth of 100s of crores (if not 1000s). And everyone, who isn’t ‘blind’, knows how such fortunes are made by political families.

    So, the question isn’t about singling out HDK’S SON. The question is if this family is worthy of trust vokkaligas repose on them, just as if Yeddy is worthy of trust Lingayats reposed on him etc.

    While it is futile to look for an ‘honest’ politician in this era, one can always hope/vote for ‘relatively’ less corrupt. Recent past has shown Gowda, Yeddy families are involved in high degree of corruption. Sadananda Gowda/Shettar were a bit better, though their duration was small. Got to see how Siddharamaiah turns out.

    It is rare that politicians are moderate in money making. In previous era we had the likes of RK Hegde, JH Patel, MP Prakash, VS Acharya etc. Who did not build huge assets for their families.

    In current era, I can only think of Suresh Kumar among prominent leaders.

  17. Rizwan Says:

    @dr ramesh

    The ‘mannina mommaga’ and his Lamborghini Gallardo badly need a car driver and cleaner too. Beyond any doubt none in Karnataka deserves the job more than you!
    Congrats.

  18. Deepak Says:

    @dr ramesh – Either you are missing the point or pretending to be dumb!!

    If a IT czar’s son buys a Lamborghini, it will be from his dad’s hard earned money. If HDK Jr buys a car, it is from the loot his family has amassed. If you are trying to say that HDK Jr is such a successful businessman, that he runs a channel and runs such huge profits that he can buy a Lambhorgini, then either you are fooling yourself or fooling us! Take your pick!!

  19. Narayan Says:

    Bloody Bommans have not been able to digest a Gowda becoming a PM. They think it is reserved only for them and they are the only ones who deserve it. As usual internet bomman trolls spewing venom, make sweeping statements without basis and call him corrupt. Even if he is corrupt, it is okay. We have endured bommans corruption for 2000 years “period”.

  20. Narayanaswamy Says:

    Heard that Nikhil Kumaraswamy and Rakesh Siddaramaiah are the latest disciples of Swami Nithyananda’s latest super-hit ‘Inner Awakening’ programme!

    http://www.bangaloremirror.com/index.aspx?page=article&sectid=10&contentid=2013062320130623012721371a0a826c0

    Awesome news…while senior Siddaramaiah has no clue on where will he get the shocking Rs 4,300 crore extra-burden needed, for the upcoming elections-oriented subsidized rice scheme :-(

    Sadly, to add more salt to the acutely bleeding wound, we will soon see a ‘Parivartan’ ad blitz in Karnataka!

  21. dr ramesh Says:

    If some tells that all IT BT HONCHOS, corporates have made money with fair business practices, then I have my heartfelt sympathies for him.
    Thousands of crores of tax -evasion issues are pending. Mauritius, Cayman islands, St.kitts island tax haven, rerouting of black money has been occurring since ages, MIDDLE CLASS ICON corporates, Bollywood producers, stars are involved.
    They are revered, they are worshipped in India.
    KURIGALU SAAR KURIGALU.

  22. Rudresh Gowda Says:

    Considering your language, Viz., KURIGALU SAAR, may we know which renowned University gave you a doctorate?
    Is it some ‘University of Holenarasipura in Hassan District?

    BTW, Janata Dal (Secular) has just announced that its crore-pathi, ‘mannina maga’ candidates to all 28 Lok Sabha constituencies of the state will be finalised before the end of this month.

    Wondering which constituency have you been selected for or still trying to get?
    Sorry, Ramanagaram is already booked for Anitha Kumaraswamy while Mangalore has been reserved for Radhika Kumaraswamy.

  23. Pulikeshi the Last Says:

    You are avoiding Narayana’s question, Dr. Ramesappa.

  24. dr ramesh Says:

    A middle class indian youth buys Sam sing phone worth 25,000 couple of months later Sam sings in his heart again he ditches the mobile and buys Sam sing 2 worth 45,000 . What’s the need?
    Nothing. But the trend is catching up, this is the problem of mindset of Indian youth.
    Lamborghini is just a symptom.
    as far as my information goes,
    HDD leads a simple, austere life.
    Regarding,
    Counselling by nithyananda, not boasting — I would have done a better job.

  25. Vinay Says:

    Dr. Ramesappa:

    What “symptom” are you talking about? In the old days, people like DG, HDD and sons would have bought tons of gold and stashed it in their house. They would have built a massive house, employed 100 servants and purchased more and more fields, and started a money-lending business.

    Today it has changed to Lamborghinis and Samsung phones. But the concept remains the same no? Living an opulent and super-luxurious lifestyle. In fact, it is better to buy Lamborghinis and Hummers rather than leech off the rural masses and buy tons of gold. The latter is what DG/HDD and sons would have done if they had been alive in the 1920s.

  26. harkol Says:

    Narayan:
    >We have endured bommans corruption for 2000 years “period”.

    So, you & bunch of others are 2000 years old to ‘endure’ it? ;)

    And how have Bomman’s doing corruption for 2000 years? While working for the Shudra Kings that ruled us?

    Chola, Chera, Pandya, Hoysala, Vijaynagara, Rashtrakuta, Shatavahana, Chalukya & other muslim kings who ruled us in past 2000 years, were not upper caste sir.

    Almost all of the ruling dynasties in south India belonged to lower caste – Check your history, before making laughable comments.

    IAC, even if we accept there was some corruption for 2,000 years, should we be perpetuating it in reverse? What kind of logic is that?

  27. harkol Says:

    Comparing Lamborghini and Samsung phone!! What next?

    Comparing Tajmahal and a Shanty in slum?

  28. Pulikeshi the Last Says:

    Dr, Ramesh–

    If one leads an austere life, what does one need crores for? What did the former prime minister from Karnataka say his assets were when he ran for Parliament?

  29. Siddalingappa Says:

    Folks:

    The hare-brained so-called Dr. Ramesh is not worth remarking about.

    Note his language and retarded, shameless thoughts….
    While he is using an alias of a Dr., it is doubtful if he has passed SSLC.

    Well, I will not be surprised if he is indeed part of the Gowda clan itself!

    Perhaps he is one of the so-called cricket players or fixers surrounding the former CM & PM, in the snap above ;-)

  30. Narayan Says:

    @ Harkol
    We have endured bommans corruption for 2000 years “period”.
    So, you & bunch of others are 2000 years old to ‘endure’ it? ;)

    It is laughable if you think we need to be 2000 years to know that, and if you think that people are still naive.
    They were in the modern sense the intellectual class, having a monopoly over knowledge. 3% population had occupied 95% bureaucracy till 1960s on this basis.

    And how have Bomman’s doing corruption for 2000 years? While working for the Shudra Kings that ruled uhs?

    Chola, Chera, Pandya, Hoysala, Vijaynagara, Rashtrakuta, Shatavahana, Chalukya & other muslim kings who ruled us in past 2000 years, were not upper caste sir.

    Why would anyone want to be a king when same power, if not more can be enjoyed without the risks of being a king, fighting wars, etc. Eventhough the kings were from other castes, the manipulative brain behind the king was always them (bureaucracy) whereby they ensured they did not have to take the sword during war instead put the kings in the line of fire, whereas they enjoy the power without much risk.

    Almost all of the ruling dynasties in south India belonged to lower caste – Check your history, before making laughable comments.

    Take the example of Visweshvaryya, an engineer, peans are sung about his achievements, building KRS, bridges, etc., that he was the one behind that, which is far from the truth. The benevolence and the vision with which Wodeyars built it is not even mentioned anywhere. How is this happening? Say, if i want to build something and i employ an engineer, then the engineer gets the credit?

    IAC, even if we accept there was some corruption for 2,000 years, should we be perpetuating it in reverse? What kind of logic is that?

    Action will always have a reaction, the only universal truth.

  31. asha Says:

    After independence the only “Bomman” CM was Ramakrishna Hegde that too for a brief period. All other CMs are “Non-Bommans”. So what is your point..Bommans nationally are miniscule around 3% wonly…so what influence do you think they will have on politics.. My sincere advise to you..please do not stop taking your medication. And BTW what is it that these non-bomman CMs have achieved for Karnataka

  32. dr ramesh Says:

    Comment posted by siddalingappa shows the deep rooted caste -divide in the minds of educated kannadigas. U say something good about the abilities of a former prime minister, perverted casteist minds get ignited and they make weird remarks.
    If someone had praised a politician of his caste, how so corrupt he may be, one feels happy. This has made corruption an acceptable way of life.
    Where was this siddalingappa, when ANTILLA came up in Mumbai costing more than 500 crores, he was in mute mode, may be he was a share holder in the company. He was happy as long as his net value of holdings went up, austerity , who cares.

  33. Narayan Says:

    Ashakka,

    After independence the only “Bomman” CM was Ramakrishna Hegde that too for a brief period. All other CMs are “Non-Bommans”. So what is your point..

    Yes change is ON after 1960, but pre 1960 your miniscule 3% occupied 95% bureaucracy all major key positions. How did this happen??? ….It happened because they held the patent for knowledge till then (knowledge was only meant for them, rest were just cattle and sheep for them). A lot of kings/cm came and went but there was one class which shrewdly manipulated the system to their advantage where they enjoyed continuous uninterrupted power being in the bureaucracy. Rest were taken for ride and made to believe in that system created by them.

    please do not stop taking your medication. And BTW what is it that these non-bomman CMs have achieved for Karnataka.

    Medication was working well for the 97% till 1960s but i was fortunate enough to have stopped it and seen things more clearly after that. Now it is your turn to be on medication, brace up.

  34. harkol Says:

    Narayan:

    What is laughable is your phraseology. You say “Even if he is corrupt, it is okay.”

    Assuming there was a historic wrong, they can’t be be used as a pretext for perpetrating ‘more wrong’ in reverse, in the hope of making it neutral. eg. You can’t declare war on UK for what their british ancestors did.

    You can’t condone today’s french repeating what Nazi Germans did to them. You can’t punish today’s OBCs (Shudra) for the persecution of Vaishnavas (and Ramanuja – a Bomman) by Kulotunga Chola.

    And no, Kulotunga wasn’t advised by a ‘bomman’ to persecute another Ramanuja! It was his own genius.

    Vishwesvarayya is indeed admired for his far sightedness. He was known for his unscrupulous honesty (not Bomman corruption as you say).

    But, he didn’t get the name for building dams. Wadeyars did get credit for building the dam! The dam that was built is named “KrishnaRajaSagara” or KRS, after Nalwadi Krishnaraja Wodeyar. Just like most airports and schemes now a days are named after Nehru or Gandhi.

    It wasn’t named “Vishveshwarayya Sagara”!!

    Also check this Churumuri article about how Nalwadi Krishnaraja Wodeyar & his mother sold their personal assets to fund it. – http://goo.gl/Yt3vf

    There are lies and then there is your statistics.

    3% Brahmins and 95% bureaucracy ? Where do you get such absurd statistics? Brahmins constitute 5-6% of India. And as of today they constitute about 9% of Loksabha. – a huge fall in past 3 decades (from 19% in 1984) and in years to come bound to fall below their percentage due to reverse discrimination. 65% brahmin families had Less than Rs.5000/month income (thus poor). only 39% of Brahmins are graduates.

    So if your idea was to pull Brahmins down the ladder – you don’t need to, they are already pretty low.

    Do you even have clear idea of what the varnashrama (Caste) system is and how it worked in Southern India? In reality that system designates a function to Brahmins and actually excludes them from all other work.

    Thus, a Brahmin couldn’t Rule a nation or do a business. Historically, the system precluded them from many professions. For eg – They couldn’t practice Engineering (Carpentry, Sculpture/architecture, civil-eng work, iron/mechanical work, etc.). They couldn’t practice medicine as it needed touching patients, which was prohibited for them. In fact, those who started doing it were designated a separate sub-caste, and couldn’t marry in to the rest of Brahmin castes!!

    All they were designated to do was to beg (Dakshine or alms), so they can learn and perpetuate mostly useless religious knowledge. The only permitted non-religious activity for Brahmins was – Agriculture.

    Such was the stupidity of the varnashrama system! Brahmins lost out on all lucrative professions.

    No book ever speaks of a ‘Rich Brahmin’. In all stories the Brahmin reference is always as “Bada Brahmana” or poor Brahmin. In fact, it is almost impossible to find a ‘very rich Brahmin’ figure in history. That was reserved for Shudra Kings & Vaishyas (Not even Kshatriyas, surprisingly).

    Only in the last couple of centuries Brahmins broke away from ‘paurohitya’ (priestly work), and ventured in to domains of ‘management’ and other professions. Their mandate of ‘knowledge acquisition’ allowed them to be the ‘managers’ to British and other kings. Even today, if you see big business, there aren’t many Brahmin run businesses. But, there are many big Brahmin Managers!!

    While (untouchables) SC/ST were precluded from the caste system , Shudra’s (OBC) could do anything – They could be Engineers, Doctors, Kings, Warriors, Businessmen. Except they weren’t taught vedas by Brahmins.

    Shudra’s had their own traditional knowledge system – of Engineering, of skilled work, of architecture, Political Science etc.

    In past 2000 years, South India was almost entirely ruled by Shudra Kings. They built palaces, Temples and are historic figures, and are credited for it. They persecuted Brahmins. They also persecuted SC/STs with a cruel system (without reforming Varnashrama system).

    Don’t even try to suggest these kings didn’t know what they were doing and a Bomman was remote controlling them!! These were powerful and cruel kings, who waged wars, sent armies to far away shores.

    The biggest, most well known temple in south India is Thirupati. Temple records indicate it was built by the donations of Pallava Queen Samavai (7th century). Pallava is a Kamma Caste (Shudra) dynasty! The temple records does not credit a Bomman for its existence! Temple records indicate that the biggest benefactors of this temple were Pallava, Cholas, Vijayanagara Kings (all Shudra dynasties).

    The Richest temple in Southern India is Padmanabhaswamy temple (Kerala). It’s benefactors were the Varma dynasty (belonging to Nair caste – another shudra dynasty).

    Badami(Chalukya), Mahabalipuram(Pallava), Hampi (Vijayanagara), Ellora Caves(Rashtrakoota), Somanathapura, Belur, Halebidu (Hoysala), Madhurai temple (Nayaks) – Think of any significant Historic structure, there is a story crediting a Shudra King for it.

    In fact, Halebidu was engineered by Jakanachari (Vishwakarma -an OBC caste).

    No Bomman is credited for any of the above for having ‘remote controlled these kings’! Point one out to me.

    So, again – do enlighten me. With all the political, economic and agrarian power being with Shudras, How did Bommans do ‘corruption’ for 2000 years?

    They may have been stupid, arrogant and may have followed what they were told as their duty by their religion. But, they did not benefit from it in any big way. And that’s a fact. It is easy to browbeat & bad mouth a minority of 5% to gain votes of majority. After all India is a OBC + SC/ST country.


    Asha:
    I think Gundu Rao was also Brahmin, though he once joked he is not a ‘Pulichar’ brahmin (i.e. a reference to his non-veg diet)!

  35. asha Says:

    Naryan,

    There was another “Bomman” CM who ruled our state..R Gundu Rao..but he is a namesake Bomman Wonly..so a small correction to my earlier comment.

  36. harkol Says:

    Narayan:

    >(knowledge was only meant for them, rest were just cattle and sheep for them)

    In Ayurveda, Brahmins knew of medicine, but were never allowed to perform surgery (or do anything that needed contact). Majority of surgery in Ayurveda were done by Shudras. Sushruta, the grand father of Surgery belonged to lower caste.

    In the book, ‘Great ideas in history of surgery’ (Zimmerman), in chapter on surgery of orient India:Sushruta, he writes “It is obvious that medical care could not have been complete without some surgery, and that the practitioners of the latter field were members of a lower caste, who were illiterate, and who passed on their knowledge by oral tradition rather than writing.”

    Sushruta is the person who bridged the gap of knowledge of physiology and surgery and Sushruta Samhita talks about the initiation of a student and specifically allows Shudras to be initiated in to surgery. Surgery continued to be a speciality of lower castes – especially Kurumba (Kuruba) caste.

    Check also the reports from 1794 about Cowasjee, a bullock driver for the British army, captured by the troops of, Tipu Sultan of Mysore, who cut off his hands and nose. After a year, a local potter performed an operation, known to Westerners as the Hindu Method, and restored his features. First recorded Rhinoplasty, using similar methods suggested by Sushruta.

    The biggest engineering feats of historical India like Grand Anicut, Halebidu, Hampi are testimony to Shudra Engineering prowess.

    So, Shudra’s had their own tradition of Knowledge. In engineering, medicine, architecture, sculpture, art (Ravi Varma), literature (Kanakadasa, Valmiki, Kalidasa).

    It is only a propaganda that Shudra’s didn’t have access to knowledge, in fact most of everyday practical knowledge (except religious one i.e. Vedas) was re-posited with them.

    So, what knowledge are you talking about??

    Historically were Shudras exploited? They were. But, it was the poor Shudras who were exploited. And SC/STs were discriminated against by Shudras too.

    Similarly there has been high incident of poverty among Brahmins too, and they too were exploited by the rich class of the time. Relatively they were indeed far better off than the poor Shudras. But, they never were as rich as ‘Rich Shudras’!!

    So, If at all Bommans are guilty of something it is this – Majority of them followed a template on caste segregation given by Manu and kept themselves in an ivory tower, Isolated themselves and became hate figures in the process.

    British education allowed Brahmins to break the shackles, and in about 200 years, they took to english education and prospered. Mind you it wasn’t the ‘Hindu caste system’ that allowed them to prosper, but a British system of education & employment.

    Now, they are the hunted class.

    —-
    Also, if Mr. Narayan’s prescription is to be taken, then it would be fair for Mr. X to break his leg, if Mr. Narayan’s great great great greeaat granddad had broken a leg of someone from Mr. X’s family!??

    That’s Such a ridiculous idea.

  37. asha Says:

    Naryananna,

    So these non-bomman leaders as per you danced to the tune of bomman bureaucrats right. Can you please name the bomman bureaucrats who advised Kengal Hanumanthaiah(non bomman CM) to loot tax payer money when he was building vidhana soudha or advised bangarappa/veerappa moily/SMK to loot..

    What knowledge enabled bomman’s to become power weilding bureaucrats that was not available to the non-bommans..vedic knowledge..hardly. So think about this. So, if a non-bomman leader is so mentally weak that he follows the diktats of the evil bomman officers, should he continue to be a leader…just asking.

  38. Narayan Says:

    @ Harkol
    What is laughable is your phraseology. You say “Even if he is corrupt, it is okay.”

    Assuming there was a historic wrong, they can’t be be used as a pretext for perpetrating ‘more wrong’ in reverse, in the hope of making it neutral. eg. You can’t declare war on UK for what their British ancestors did.

    there is still profiling going on caste basis and i speak from my own experience. experience i had in a reputed bomman school where they brazenly asked me the caste i belonged to, even though i had mentioned “Hindu,” this was shocking. Guess what happened after i told them my caste??? So if the system is that way, lets go all guns blazing. With this kind of thing going on, you think i endure and not do it in reverse?

    You can’t declare war on UK for what their british ancestors did.

    You can’t condone today’s french repeating what Nazi Germans did to them. You can’t punish today’s OBCs (Shudra) for the persecution of Vaishnavas (and Ramanuja – a Bomman) by Kulotunga Chola.

    We can declare war on UK, unfortunately we do not have the capability to go to war with them and defeat them. We can declare war on the whole world if we have the capability and if we sense we have an opportunity to rule the world. so it is all about power and flexing your muscles. Why do you think US has its way. It is definitely not for their peace loving nature. We humans appear civilized, but animal instinct takes over once we have absolute power. We tend to annihilate the weak.

    Vishwesvarayya is indeed admired for his far sightedness. He was known for his unscrupulous honesty (not Bomman corruption as you say).

    But, he didn’t get the name for building dams. Wadeyars did get credit for building the dam! The dam that was built is named “KrishnaRajaSagara” or KRS, after Nalwadi Krishnaraja Wodeyar. Just like most airports and schemes now a days are named after Nehru or Gandhi.

    It wasn’t named “Vishveshwarayya Sagara”!!

    Vish did not get name for building the dam??? dont joke, his name’s synonymous with KRS more than wodeyar. The name Krisnaraja sagar is also abbreviated to KRS now and obscures the name of wodeyar. Tell me one other dam, where an engineer has got so much credit like this one or where an engineer’s name is even mentioned. by the way, his genius was put to doubt when he built “S” shaped bridges to reduce speed, which took more lives.

    Do you even have clear idea of what the varnashrama (Caste) system is and how it worked in Southern India? In reality that system designates a function to Brahmins and actually excludes them from all other work.

    Thus, a Brahmin couldn’t Rule a nation or do a business. Historically, the system precluded them from many professions. For eg – They couldn’t practice Engineering (Carpentry, Sculpture/architecture, civil-eng work, iron/mechanical work, etc.). They couldn’t practice medicine as it needed touching patients, which was prohibited for them. In fact, those who started doing it were designated a separate sub-caste, and couldn’t marry in to the rest of Brahmin castes!!

    Some brahmins for you,
    does the below debunk the above that were not into other work?

    Sushrutha, dhanvantri, aryabhata, bhaskara, charaka, vagbhata, varamihira, ramanujam, chanakya, vidyaranya.

    Rajagopalachari, Jawaharlal Nehru, Morarji Desai, Lal bahudur shastri, Indira Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi,P.V.Narasimha Rao, Atal Bihari Vajpayee.

    Pranab Mukerjee, SD Sharma, Venkatraman, VV Giri, Radhakrishnan.

    Mallya, Pais, TVS, TTK, Bose, Kirloskar, Kamath, Srinivasan, etc,

    If i am not wrong Sirname Vaidya is used by brahmins? its origin??

    So, again – do enlighten me. With all the political, economic and agrarian power being with Shudras, How did Bommans do ‘corruption’ for 2000 years?

    They may have been stupid, arrogant and may have followed what they were told as their duty by their religion. But, they did not benefit from it in any big way. And that’s a fact. It is easy to browbeat & bad mouth a minority of 5% to gain votes of majority. After all India is a OBC + SC/ST country.

    The above names should enlighten you I suppose on the political, economic power of brahmins and not to mention their patent on the divine power.

    Like i said Kings were kshatriyas, very rarely shudras, but all their prime ministers and ministers were either brahmin or from the king’s clan i.e., 95% brahmin and 5% kings clan.

    Agrarian is lot of hard physical work, which is for the rest to do.

  39. NS Rao Says:

    Ah! It’s refreshing to write my thoughts after a long time. I see that most of the fellow bloggers whom I’m aware of are still reading Churumuri and contributing their thoughts as well !! Great going guys!!

    Well, coming to the subject, I am not surprised to see my beloved son of soil holding a bat – I see that very subjectively. It looks like he is guarding his 3 sons (Revanna, Kumara and Balakrishna) from any ball (read onslaught) that can come from the Opposition.

    As usual, our “Hallin DaakTru” is busy commenting on the game played by the son of soil like BCCI commentators who always support the Indian team on TV commentary. Well done Doc!! You are doing a decent job, but the problem is your commentary is being heard in an alien land – I am not sure, many people will buy your theory and it is very poor argument to support the “Clan”.

    I somehow cannot close my comment without making a few observations on the “Bomman” interpretation and the various comments for and against the caste in this blog. I agree with Harkol’s theory that the very fact that Bommans were the brains behind the scenes working in various capacities made our country a prosperous one – unlike what we see today with a lot of undeserving people sitting in positions of power and fame and working behind the scenes (looting and helping to loot as well). It is rather unfortunate that the so called neo-educated people who were apparently oppressed feel that revenge is the right word against Bommans, but the fact of matter is that if it were not to be them, visionaries would not have been there – and definitely not progressed as much as we have. There may have been exceptions because of what Harkol says as “Varnaashrama”, but I am sure, we would’ve seen better days if we did not have any Reservation based on Caste. I still strongly believe that Reservation based on Caste alone is the biggest blunder that was propagated by Independent India. I think Reservation based on Caste and Poverty combination or Poverty alone would’ve been a very good case. Today, Merit has taken a backseat and it is only money that talks – rather unfortunate!! You can purchase anything in India – starting from education to Graduation Certificates!! With the so called neo-Administrators, there will be a day when we will have to pay tax for breathing fresh air also. Further, Reservation should have been done away with, as was planned by Ambedkar within a specified duration (I think it was to be 20 years after Independence). It is rather unfortunate that we have no forward thinking Politicians in our Country (including the “Clan”) who can never think of making the country prosper. All they seem to be interested is in making their “Clan” prosperous so that their progeny can thrive on this loot for generations to come.

    Altogether, this is a nice piece of material to argue about, on the web. Churumuri – do you think that more controversial subjects like these will make people to comment more on this blog?

  40. dr ramesh Says:

    N s rao ,
    Respect ur opinion, want to clarify BCCI commentators receive crores for their comments. I only get to read and hear about crores of rupees.
    No question of blindly supporting a clan, but I have strong opinion against a section of media and society which have been treating unsophisticated,grass root politicians unfairly, deliberately glorifying their mistakes and underplaying their achievements.
    Shastri vs Nehru.
    Deve gowda vs s m Krishna
    These comparisons will give an idea of the biased mindsets of the elite class.

    Removal of former prime minister H D DEVEGOWDA ‘S portrait from cabinet hall in karnataka is an example of the deep rooted bias. But pressure from sane minds in karnataka ensured portrait was reinstalled in its right ful place.

  41. Narayan Says:

    @ NS Rao

    I am not surprised to see my beloved son of soil holding a bat – I see that very subjectively. It looks like he is guarding his 3 sons (Revanna, Kumara and Balakrishna) from any ball (read onslaught) that can come from the Opposition.

    It is quite natural to guard your children from cut throats, manipulators. You dont do it??? …then it is abuse.
    Well, Very nice to see a beloved bomman guarding his kind.

    As usual, our “Hallin DaakTru” is busy commenting on the game played by the son of soil like BCCI commentators who always support the Indian team on TV commentary. Well done Doc!! You are doing a decent job, but the problem is your commentary is being heard in an alien land – I am not sure, many people will buy your theory and it is very poor argument to support the “Clan”.

    Nice comedy.

    I somehow cannot close my comment without making a few observations on the “Bomman” interpretation and the various comments for and against the caste in this blog. I agree with Harkol’s theory that the very fact that Bommans were the brains behind the scenes working in various capacities made our country a prosperous one – unlike what we see today with a lot of undeserving people sitting in positions of power and fame and working behind the scenes (looting and helping to loot as well).

    They were the brains behind, bcoz of patented knowledge they held for their selfish ends. They prospered, not others. When they are prospering, dont generalize that all are prospering. There was no country called India before independence, it was a conglomeration of 250 kingdoms. Bommans have looted for 2000 years, let others also get a feel of oppressing, suppressing and looting. Is it not a desire of every being to experience the power and achieve their desires. After they are satisfied, then you can expect the ram rajya that you desire now. It has to go a full circle. what you sow you reap. Learn to tolerate like we did.

    It is rather unfortunate that the so called neo-educated people who were apparently oppressed feel that revenge is the right word against Bommans, but the fact of matter is that if it were not to be them, visionaries would not have been there – and definitely not progressed as much as we have.

    Good joke….very nice theory.

    There may have been exceptions because of what Harkol says as “Varnaashrama”, but I am sure, we would’ve seen better days if we did not have any Reservation based on Caste. I still strongly believe that Reservation based on Caste alone is the biggest blunder that was propagated by Independent India. I think Reservation based on Caste and Poverty combination or Poverty alone would’ve been a very good case.

    To make it a level playing field, reservation has come into existence. You seem to forget the 95% tacitile reservation bommans had for 2000 yrs. you already are crying hoarse after 60 years of “modern” reservation.

    It is rather unfortunate that we have no forward thinking Politicians in our Country (including the “Clan”) who can never think of making the country prosper. All they seem to be interested is in making their “Clan” prosperous so that their progeny can thrive on this loot for generations to come.

    “All” aspire for their progeny to thrive, that is how it is and you are not an exception to this. Narayanmurthy the saint of Infy broke a rule he himself set: that no founder will get an executive position once he is past the age of 60 and none of their family members will be given positions, and would step down even from non-executive positions upon attaining the age of 65. Infy changed retirement age for chairman to 75 and allowing family members. Is this not manipulation, only the “clan” is visible to you. So stop this crap of clan politics, it is there everywhere. Lets not fool ourselves.

  42. harkol Says:

    Narayan:
    >there is still profiling going on caste basis

    Surely. You are a prime example of supporters of perpetuating such profiling. You hate Brahmins and support discrimination. And there is no way anyone can change that hatred.

    >We can declare war on UK, unfortunately we do not have the capability to go to war with them and defeat them.

    You need Medical help! I only hope your family gets you that!

    >Sushrutha, dhanvantri, aryabhata, bhaskara, charaka, vagbhata, varamihira, ramanujam, chanakya, vidyaranya.

    Sushrutha wasn’t a Brahmin. He was a Kumbar (potter). Brahmins didn’t do surgery in Ayurveda.

    Charaka was indeed a Brahmin, but he was a physician and thus dealt only within Brahmin community.

    All names you have mentioned involved theoretical knowledge domain (Veda = Knowledge), and Ayurveda too was veda, and astronomy/math was part of Vedanga – thus within the realm of Brahmins. So, no knowledge was beyond them. But, they were prohibited from pursuing other professions.

    But, there are no historic references to Brahmins doing engineering, surgery, waging wars, having ruling dynasties, doing business. But, all of the above was done by Shudras. That is the fact.

    And, it is not true that knowledge wasn’t available to Shudras. In previous post I have named quite a lot of Shudra scholars I can name many others.

    It is a myth that Shudra’s were disadvantaged in history. it was Dalits (SC/ST) who were the equals of slaves in India, and mostly Shudra’s (being powerful folk) perpetuated that system.

    >Rajagopalachari, Jawaharlal Nehru, Morarji Desai, Lal bahudur shastri, Indira Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi,P.V.Narasimha Rao, Atal Bihari Vajpayee.

    LB Shastri wasn’t a brahmin, he was a Kayastha Kshatriya (He changed his name to Shastri, which was originally Shrivatsava). Rajiv gandhi was son of a Parsi, thus not a Brahmin.

    And you named quite a few contemporary names in business, which is futile. I told you, post-British (last 200+yrs), Brahmins moved to other professions than ‘priestly work and agriculture, by taking western education.

    >If I am not wrong Sirname Vaidya is used by brahmins? its origin?

    Vaidhya/Baidya/Vaidyar is a separate caste who practice ayurveda medicine. There are many castes using such surname, But, as I mentioned in my previous post, they are not Bommans.

    In Bengal caste system they were high caste ranked next to Brahmins. In Kerala system, they were low caste (like Vaidya Nairs) typically Shudra or Outcastes.

    >Like i said Kings were kshatriyas, very rarely shudras

    REALLY? Name one prominent South Indian ‘Kshatriya’ dynasty in 2000 years! Try searching historical books & references. You will realize how you are lying to yourself.

    In north, except some states, Kshatriya rule wasn’t a rule. In uttar Pradesh, Bihar, West Bengal, orissa were largely ruled by Shudra, vaishya (Harshavardhana) and even rare Brahmin kings (Shashanka). And for close to 500years, muslims ruled north India.

    And, Kshatriya rule never came to south of Vindhya. Even Chatrapati Shivaji was said to be a Shudra, sighting this Maratha Chitpavan Brahmins refused to crown him. So, he got a well known Brahmin from banaras to ‘make him’ a Kshatriya, thru an ‘initiation’ process and do his coronation.

    Over 90% of dynasties and rulers in 2000+ years in South were Shudras & Muslims. In north there were at least Rajputs (Kshatriyas), but in south there were hardly any Kshatriya Kingdoms. Few years back when I did reading on the subject, I couldn’t find even one.

    So, how can you say it is rare for Shudra to rule in India? Consider this…

    You mentioned Chanakya?? Historical texts say Chanakya was refused by Nandas, when he sought their help against invading Alexander to save Takshashila (present Rawalpindi). So, he swore to bring their downfall and make an strong empire.

    Others ascribe other motives. But all agree – His aim wasn’t to become a king. So, whom did he make the king??

    He made ‘Chandra Gupta Maurya’ the king of the biggest Indian empire before Moghals. Maurya was a Shudra.

    He was born to a Dasi (slave). He was illegitimate son of King Nanda, a shudra himself (of Nanda dynasty established by Mahapadma Nanda, who was a Barber). This is some 2,500 years back!!!

    Rare?? Still want to talk of 2,000 years of ‘endurance’ of ‘brahmin corruption’? Or do you want to start thinking of some twisted ‘Shudra corruption’ now??

    And Check what Chanakya did after attaining his aim of Nandas who insulted him?! He was the brain & power behind the entire decimation of Nanda army. He could’ve easily become the King, but he established Maurya as King, brought back Amatya Rakshasa (Mudrarakshasa) as his Prime Minister. Then he retired back to his ashram.

    He continued to be a poor Brahmin. He practically established the Maurya-Magadha empire, but then went back to his Ashram for reserach, writing & teaching – because that’s what Brahmins were supposed to do – An austere life of learning, praying and teaching.

    He knew everything about political science and economics. He was the master of it all. But he had no desire to rule. When Maurya fell on his feet asking him to continue in Patliputra, he is said to have told Maurya, “I am a Brahmin, my Karma is to teach and eat from the alms given to me”.

    And, What did he get in return? Bimbisara was angry with him, and it is said he fasted himself to death. Jains say he was ordered to be killed by and he was burnt alive.

    Either way, poverty in his old age and a painful end to his life!!


    And you want Laborgini driving folks to rule because likes of Chanakya were advisor to king once upon a time?

    Shudras,Muslims & british have ruled India for 2,000+ years and you still want to blame Bommans for its corruption & ills?

    If it is your twisted logic that the folks who never enjoyed power in History should enjoy it now – then It is SC/ST who should have first claim on CM chairs. Then it will be Brahmins, Vaishya community (in that order) who should do so, because they never ruled any part of India for any substantial duration of time!! Shudra’s shall have no claim by that logic.

    And using your twisted logic – Shudra’s should only be made to learn Vedas and it should be deprived to Brahmins. Shudra’s should be told not to touch any other caste, thus not become surgeons, or perform any engineering professions as they are privileged caste.

    Sounds SICK?? Well that’s your argument sir. I don’t believe this should happen, but just rebutting your Bigoted logic.

    >Ministers were 95% brahmin and 5% kings clan??

    Do give some reference of where you got this info. ‘Sumne Gas bidbedi’.

    Historically there have been more Brahim priests who were ‘advisors’ to kings than Ministers. Like Vidhyaranya, who was the head of Sringeri mutt, but helped found Vijayanagara empire thru Hakka-Bukka (both Shudra). If your argument that Bomman’s enforced a corrupted ‘caste system’ is right, then why would they repeatedly establish Shudras as kings?

    And also assuming you are right and taking your dubious 95% figure to be Brahmins – even then it doesn’t make any sense.

    Kings were not just figure heads like President of India. Diwans/Mantri were more like secretary to Chief Minister now.

    Diwans were administrative heads, but didn’t make policy in absolute monarchy system. Kings decided policy, gave orders and Ministers only ‘implemented’ the policy of the king. Doing anything else would’ve meant death, disfiguring or imprisonment.

    Krishnadevaraya ordered Thimmarasu (Brahmin) & entire family to be blinded in a fit of rage under mistaken belief that he committed treason. He, later realized his mistake, and begged forgiveness from Thimmarasu. He did forgive the king, but refused to be his minister. If Thimmarasu was corrupt, he wouldn’t have died a death in Penury & beggining, inspite of being the Prime Minister of richest kingdom of India!!

    Diwan Purnaiah, couldn’t get justice to his own raped daughter, and Tipu added insult to injury by offering to keep the daughter in his harem!!

    Powerful Diwan/Ministers?

    >You were asked your caste in a Bomman run school?

    So does 100% of people in 100% of schools/colleges. And if you are a Brahmin, your life becomes miserable, as you do not have advantage of any kind of reservation, and there are very few Brahmin run schools in India, as most of the approval process is convoluted by caste logic. And even in Brahmin created schools (Manipal institutes), reservation is a fact of life.

    That’s the stupid system we have. We are not human beings – we are just a denomination of our caste. We need to change that – not perpetuate it.

    If one wants to neutrally observe- historically Brahmins never massacred large number of people. They were always the lambs who were massacred. They never amassed obscene wealth, all the big wealth being in the hands of Shudras & Kshatriyas.

    Their only mistake was to follow a segregation system that assigned them a role, which was enforced by mostly Shudra Kings. It was a harsh system – no doubt. Just as Slavery was a harsh system of past.

    But, No one can logically justify reverse discrimination and ask Whites should be the slaves of Black today.

    Only a twisted mind needing help can. But, if you want to really implement it, then please start with yourself.

    Shudra’s discriminated the outcastes & untouchables (SC/ST) and did not allow them within the vicinity either, but I don’t see you wanting to punish Shudras for that! I don’t see you wanting all Shudra castes (including Gowdas) to be kept away from power in favor of SC/STs!!

    Today, Shudra’s (OBC) have more reservation than SC/ST, and more political power by sheer numerical superiority.

    And, today the same harsh system you crib about, is being perpetuated in reverse. If people truly say the old system was bad, then they can’t justify perpetuating it in reverse either. If they do on the basis of a ‘historic wrong’ then world will be a very dark place.

    India can’t follow such path of discrimination. India can’t be a civilized place until we can put behind the ‘historic’ victimhood and the divisive caste system and work for an equitable and combined future. To be blinded by Caste hatred is to be stuck in history.

    The great poet Pampa (8th century) says “ಕುಲಮನೆ ಮುನ್ನಂ ಉಗ್ಗದಿಪಿರೆಮ್ಗಳ. ನಿಮ್ಮಕುಲನ್ಗಲಾಂತು ಮರ್ಮಲೆವನನ್ ಅತ್ತಿತಿಮ್ಬುದೆ? ಕುಲಂ ಕುಲಮಾಲ್ತು, ಚಲಂ ಕುಲಮ್, ಗುಣಂ ಕುಲಮ್, ಅಭಿಮಾನಂ ಕುಲಮ್. ಅನ್ಮು ಕುಲಮ್.” (Why do you give so much importance to caste? Will it help you stop death? Caste can’t be your lineage. Firmness is your lineage, character is your lineage, pride is your lineage. Love is your lineage.)

    So, think hard – if you want hatred to be your lineage?

    If you still want it to be, then Please do inform a close relative or well wisher about your hatred of ‘bommans’. Hopefully, They may recognize a severe negative tendency and can get you some help – before your brain is entirely cooked.

  43. Shruti Says:

    The entire discussion was initially about ‘spot-fixing’ or ‘corruption’ by the noted ‘mannina maga’ Gowda clan. It is strange that while the large family continue to powerfully prosper while effectively ‘fixing’ every single probe or investigation by various agencies into their misdeeds, the initial topic on their entics, fixing behaviour, shocking actions, unaccounted fortune and gross misdeeds has always been regretfully diverted by their canny followers, to caste-based issues.

    Shameless specimens like the so-called ‘dr ramesh’ will always have the time to play games or divert crucial topics but the fact is that the entire ‘mannina maga’ clan has been among the most corrupt and disgusting family that our state has ever witnessed!

  44. Hiremath Says:

    Let us accept it, the Gowda family & cronies (all of them) made billions and will always be an eye sore for Kannadigas.

    But instead of discussing the incurable past, it will be a great public service and an interesting debate if Churumuri can highlight the crores being swindled day in and out, by the current govt, especially in real estate, licenses, govt funds, transfers, excise, PWD, infrastructure and mining.

    The current home minister (also has the ATM portfolio called Urban development) oiled his ‘public service’ skills while ‘performing’ in the notoriously corrupt Veerendra Patil and S. Bangarappa governments. We also have a well-known real estate baron of Blr and son of a ex-CM managing the lucrative Food and Civil Supplies portfolio! The entire list is a who’s who of the corrupt, that includes a scotch-whisky obsessed film star who manages housing and a noted, mining lord from Bellary who incidentally is managing the crucial Infrastructure portfolio!

  45. harkol Says:

    To anyone who is interested in knowing why I so vehemently argue against ‘hatred for Brahmins’ and ‘their discrimination’ – I am a born a brahmin, but I am an atheist, and not a Brahmin in karma. However, I studied Veda, and have read extensively on Hindu texts. I am not condoning the Varnashrama system at all. Just clarifying the facts as I know it.

    Vedic religion (Not Hindu religion, as it didn’t exist) was what a Brahmin was supposed to follow. Some of this is detailed in Badharayana’s Brahma Sutra. If I am not mistaken this is the book that says Non-Brahmins shouldn’t be taught.

    This is an absurd formulation, but entirely in line with how history evolved. This is similar to nations having an ‘export control’ list (eg. USA does not permit high grade encryption to other countries), because that knowledge may be used against them.

    What one must realize is Hindu wasn’t a single religion. In reality it is a ‘system’, that is classified as religion more recently. ‘Vedic religion’ is one of the religions within Hindu system of faith, and the Veda/Vedanta & upanishads, specified what a follower of Vedic system (Brahmins) should do and should not do. And it prohibited veda from being taught to non-Vedics (non-brahmins).

    Adi Shankaracharya clarified some 1,300-1,800 years back (no one knows exact time period of Adi Shankara), that the Brahma Sutra restrictions on not teaching is limited to ‘vedas’ and any other knowledge, including religious knowledge can be learnt by anyone using other similarly exalted texts (Gita, Purana etc.) which propound the overall values. And he made it clear any other knowledge wasn’t restricted to any other caste.

    There was absolutely no justification even within the religion (which is far from perfect) for denial of non-vedic knowledge to any folks within varnashrama system.

    But, the cruelty of Varnashrama system was more in practice than in definition. Today’s dalits were indeed treated so inhumanely that there can’t be any possible human explanation for such behaviour. I am ashamed our ancestors (all the four castes) did this.

    There are parallels to this in world history – Europeans, Americans, Arabs, Chinese, Japanese, Egyptians all had slavery system that was equally unconscionable as our caste segregation system. Rights of some were denied, for no fault of theirs. There was no concept of ‘human rights’ until more recently (100+ yrs).

    And the human exploitation in India follows the same form. The worst hit from this exploitation were the Dalits (untouchables & Tribals). Lower, landless shudras were hit too.

    Perpetuators of this were indeed upper class (Brahmin, Bania, Kshatriya & upper-class of Shudra).

    Brahims being the intellectuals of the society should’ve put a stop to this – but they didn’t do it until about a century back. One of the very first folks to raise their voice against such a system was Raja Ram Mohan Roy (A Brahmin, who faced the ire of his own community), couple of century ago! – Then there were so many who started demanding the disbanding of the cruel system.

    Such enlightenment in India, mirrors what happened around the world – i.e. Mankind became more humane and aware of brotherhood of man, and human rights.

    At Indian independence, the founding fathers rightly thought that the SC/STs needed protection & some help to rise up. And thus allowed for some measures, that was patently un-equal, but was supposed to be for limited duration to take care of an emergency situation.

    It wasn’t done as a ‘revenge’ for ‘centuries of injustice’. It was done as a measure to provide a head start to the lowest & most exploited community.

    The irony is after 65 years, it was extended to the very folks who have been the exploiters, and to those who need no such ‘head start’.

    This is patently unjust. The system of treating the citizens of this country as un-equals should end.

  46. Narayan Says:

    @Harkol,

    Surely. You are a prime example of supporters of perpetuating such profiling. You hate Brahmins and support discrimination. And there is no way anyone can change that hatred.

    Brahmin school discriminates, I am the one perpetrating and perpetuating their actions. Again the cunning manupulative bomman brain working overtime to turn and twist everything.
    My belief is not just based on any theory like yours, but personal experiences I have had over a period of time which has moulded me to adjust to this system. So don’t preach me about hatred. First remove the poison in your brains

    >We can declare war on UK, unfortunately we do not have s the capability to go to war with them and defeat them.
    You need Medical help! I only hope your family gets you that!

    You are delusional and I am sure your family knows about it but is helpless as you are a hopeless case. Utopia does not exist, WAKE UP. There will be wars, frauds, corruption, conspiracy, pollution, manipulation, jealousy, backstabbing, cheating, etc. So learn to live with it graciously in REAL WORLD. You can expect Ram Rajya in another realm.

    Sushrutha wasn’t a Brahmin. He was a Kumbar (potter). Brahmins didn’t do surgery in Ayurveda.

    One of your bomman website claimed him to be one of yours.

    But, there are no historic references to Brahmins doing engineering, surgery, waging wars, having ruling dynasties, doing business. But, all of the above was done by Shudras. That is the fact.

    Sunga and Kanva empires, kings of Magadha were Brahmin kingdoms. Shudras were the labor class which involved all skilled and unskilled labor. Jakkanachari was a sculptor, skilled labor, not an engineer.

    And you named quite a few contemporary names in business, which is futile. I told you, post-British (last 200+yrs), Brahmins moved to other professions than ‘priestly work and agriculture, by taking western education.

    Post independence, which community has been at the helm of Indian state, do check how many presidents, prime ministers versus others. You want some statistics on bureaucracy, year 1985.
    3,300 Indian Administrative Officers (IAS), 2,376 are Brahmins; from the rank ofdeputy secretaries upwards, out of 500, 310 are Brahmins; of the 26 state chief secretaries, 19 are Brahmins; of the 16 Supreme Court judges, 9 are Brahmins; of 438 district magistrates, 250 are Brahmins
    Also when talking about history, who is the writer of history??? Opinion on events in India has been largely shaped by the viewpoint of bomman propagandists who control the government machinery/political system/academics/state-run mass media/press, etc. They have been extremely effective in propagating their historical and political propaganda and hiding, deflecting and scapegoating the gruesome realities and their failures and tyranny on their victims, i.e, lower castes and other non-bommans.

    And you want Laborgini driving folks to rule because likes of Chanakya were advisor to king once upon a time?
    Shudras,Muslims & british have ruled India for 2,000+ years and you still want to blame Bommans for its corruption & ills?
    If it is your twisted logic that the folks who never enjoyed power in History should enjoy it now – then It is SC/ST who should have first claim on CM chairs. Then it will be Brahmins, Vaishya community (in that order) who should do so, because they never ruled any part of India for any substantial duration of time!! Shudra’s shall have no claim by that logic.

    Clap, clap, …..again divide and rule, ……you are the masters of deception, manipulation. How does someone driving a Lamborghini/or not affect you?? Unless you are jealous. Just make sweeping generalizations. Good governance is what you should be looking at not his Lamborghini. If you want to covet it, go get one.

    And using your twisted logic – Shudra’s should only be made to learn Vedas and it should be deprived to Brahmins. Shudra’s should be told not to touch any other caste, thus not become surgeons, or perform any engineering professions as they are privileged caste.

    That is your system, we believe in a level playing field. First bring the rest of non bommans to an even level.

    Sounds SICK?? Well that’s your argument sir. I don’t believe this should happen, but just rebutting your Bigoted logic.

    Your blind hatred towards others is alright, it is not bigotry?

    Do give some reference of where you got this info. ‘Sumne Gas bidbedi’.

    Namge tindidella chennagi aragutte, kasta pattu kelsa madtivi. Gas bidokke 2000 varshagalinda aaramagiro kelsa hudukondilla, hudokulodu illa. Gas problem yarge irabohudu anta yonchne maadi? Manassunu aste shudda, hasige iroastu kal chachetevve. Bereavara mele assuhe padolla. Davasa danya beledu ellara hote tumbistivi.

    Historically there have been more Brahim priests who were ‘advisors’ to kings than Ministers. Like Vidhyaranya, who was the head of Sringeri mutt, but he lped found Vijayanagara empire thru Hakka-Bukka (both Shudra). If your argument that Bomman’s enforced a corrupted ‘caste system’ is right, then why would they repeatedly establish Shudras as kings?

    Brahmins by nature are passive. They are very clever in choosing their professions. They always look at behind the scenes action, where the risk involved is very less to none. They usually shun jobs that involve physical work. They are main instigators/conspirators of war, but never fight in a war or come to the forefront; loyalty is not their forte. they are prime example of divide and rule conspirators between communities,

    And also assuming you are right and taking your dubious 95% figure to be Brahmins – even then it doesn’t make any sense.
    Kings were not just figure heads like President of India. Diwans/Mantri were more like secretary to Chief Minister now.
    Diwans were administrative heads, but didn’t make policy in absolute monarchy system. Kings decided policy, gave orders and Ministers only ‘implemented’ the policy of the king. Doing anything else would’ve meant death, disfiguring or imprisonment.
    Krishnadevaraya ordered Thimmarasu (Brahmin) & entire family to be blinded in a fit of rage under mistaken belief that he committed treason. He, later realized his mistake, and begged forgiveness from Thimmarasu. He did forgive the king, but refused to be his minister. If Thimmarasu was corrupt, he wouldn’t have died a death in Penury & beggining, inspite of being the Prime Minister of richest kingdom of India!!
    Diwan Purnaiah, couldn’t get justice to his own raped daughter, and Tipu added insult to injury by offering to keep the daughter in his harem!!
    Powerful Diwan/Ministers?
    >You were asked your caste in a Bomman run school?
    So does 100% of people in 100% of schools/colleges. And if you are a Brahmin, your life becomes miserable, as you do not have advantage of any kind of reservation, and there are very few Brahmin run schools in India, as most of the approval process is convoluted by caste logic. And even in Brahmin created schools (Manipal institutes), reservation is a fact of life.

    I have given you statistics of indian state of 1985 bureaucracy, where do you think you are at a disadvantage. You are manipulating the system to keep others down.
    I did not face the same problem, to my surprise, in a minority run famous school.

    That’s the stupid system we have. We are not human beings – we are just a denomination of our caste. We need to change that – not perpetuate it.s

    Exactly, I too used to hold the same sentiment as you. I have to live in the system and reluctantly have had to change my views and not swim against the tide.

    If one wants to neutrally observe- historically Brahmins never massacred large number of people. They were alwamys the lambs who were massacred. They never amassed obscene wealth, all the big wealth being in the hands of Shudras & Kshatriyas.

    I Repeat again, they were the key conspirators of most massacres and were massacred when their devious designs became known. They did not need big wealth, but had enough wealth and power to lead a riskless life continuously. They were smart enough not to go after big wealth, which after a point is useless(law of diminishing marginal utility). Even today, you see them in safe jobs.

    Their only mistake was to follow a segregation system that assigned them a role, which was enforced by mostly Shudra Kings. It was a harsh system – no doubt. Just as Slavery was a harsh system of past.

    Kings came and went, but the system was same under all kings. It was not the kings, it was them who made the system to suit themselves.

    But, No one can logically justify reverse dis discrimination and ask Whites should be the slaves of Black today.

    You want to hang the rapist, murderer, but let go of 2000 years of atrocities and deception? Let’s start a reform school for murderers, rapists and no reverse discrimination, okay. We will condone all the past murderers, rapists, etc and hope for Utopia.

    Only a twisted mind needing help can. But, if you want to really implement it, then please start with yourself.

    The art of twisting and turning facts patent is again held by your kind and you talk about twisted mind, if you want some help to turn over a new leaf with regard to honesty, integrity, ethics, we will gladly help you, if needed even medically.

    Shudra’s discriminated the outcasts & untouchables (SC/ST) and did not allow them within the vicinity either, but I don’t see you wanting to punish Shudras for that! I don’t see you wanting all Shudra castes (including Gowdas) to be kept away from power in favor of SC/STs!!

    Again divide and rule at work. Shudras including SC/STs work side by side from time immemorial. They were allowed everywhere and were served food at home. So there was no discrimination as such. Your kind practised untouchability and other inhuman practises. Don’t put us in your category as and when you like.

    Today, Shudra’s (OBC) have more reservation than SC/ST, and more political power by sheer numerical superiority.

    Check the reservation break up and then talk. You have more reservation than us. BTW Check number of PMs and presidents after independence.

    And, today the same harsh system you crib about, is being perpetuated in reverse. If people truly say the old system was bad, then they can’t justify perpetuating it in reverse either. If they do on the basis of a ‘historic wrong’ then world will be a very dark place.

    We are not here to take your bullS*** all the time, learn tolerance. To have a fair idea of what the other person went through, put his shoes on. Without experience, the suffering cannot be gauged. So ram rajya can only be possible when each and everyone know how and what it is like, not vicariously

    India can’t follow such path of discrimination. India can’t be a civilized place until we can put behind the ‘historic’ victimhood and the divisive caste system and work for an equitable and combined future. To be blinded by Caste hatred is to be stuck in history.

    First accept that there is still discrimination by your kind. Accepting something is half the battle won than going around circles justifying what happened and is happening. Try to see others view in a rational way without jaundiced eyes. Everything will change. Innu “Nam konane munde” andre adu bere vichara.
    The great poet Pampa (8th century) says “ಕುಲಮನೆ ಮುನ್ನಂ ಉಗ್ಗದಿಪಿರೆಮ್ಗಳ. ನಿಮ್ಮಕುಲನ್ಗಲಾಂತು ಮರ್ಮಲೆವನನ್ ಅತ್ತಿತಿಮ್ಬುದೆ? ಕುಲಂ ಕುಲಮಾಲ್ತು, ಚಲಂ ಕುಲಮ್, ಗುಣಂ ಕುಲಮ್, ಅಭಿಮಾನಂ ಕುಲಮ್. ಅನ್ಮು ಕುಲಮ್.” (Why do you give so much importance to caste? Will it help you stop death? Caste can’t be your lineage. Firmness is your lineage, character is your lineage, pride is your lineage. Love is your lineage.)

    This applies to your kind more than us.

    So, think hard – if you want hatred to be your lineage?
    If you still want it to be, then Please do inform a close relative or well wisher about your hatred of ‘bommans’. Hopefully, They may recognize a severe negative tendency and can get you some help – before your brain is entirely cooked.

    Love and hate are relative terms. It will change from one to other accordingly depending on the time and circumstance. There is no permanent hatred or love. So go to the root of problem, find the solution, dont go for the fruit. You get what you sow, take good care.
    You commenting about hatred is a joke. People who practised untouchability (some still practise) and who treated humans worse than animals are talking about hatred. I am sure your family and relatives are in the know of your condition(selective amnesia and insanity) and also realize the futility of helping you as a hopeless case

  47. Vinay Says:

    Narayan:

    You are talking nonsense. If you can prove that Harkol practices untouchability or has discriminated against other based on caste in his lifetime, by all means haul him over the coals.

    Just yammering that some of Harkol’s distant ancestors may have practiced discrimination thousands of years back, and using that as a stick to beat him, is idiocy. You are the mental patient here.

  48. harkol Says:

    Narayana:

    >First remove the poison in your brains

    I am not the one preaching an attack on Britain or discrimination against any particular caste here.

    >You want to hang the rapist, murderer, but let go of 2000 years of atrocities and deception?
    >People who practised untouchability (some still practise) and who treated humans worse than animals are talking about hatred.

    I (or my family members who are alive) never practiced untouchability. We never treated humans worse than animals.

    Our ancestors (mine and yours) did. You want to punish them all?

    By all means – Go hunt down folks who did such inhuman discrimination. Invent a time machine for doing that first.

    Simple universal human rights – You can’t punish a son for the sins of father, leave alone his fore-fathers.

    Likes of you don’t even know when you are consumed by hatred and can’t see reason. Because only likes of you can think of attacking Britain for sins of their forefathers. Perhpas, the likes of you would want to murder Muslims for the sins of their marauding & murdering forefathers??

    However, the likes of you won’t want Shudra’s to be massacred for the massacre of Brahmins done by Shudra Chola kings. Nor do you want present day Shudra to be punished for their own bad treatment of ‘outcastes’. Do, check who did the night-soil in your ancestoral homes in villages, it was typically the ‘outcaste among out-castes’. They were called Thotti caste (in coastal Karnataka and Kerala). They cleaned the toilets of Shudras as well as Brahmins.

    Your ‘action-reaction’ theory is surely selective & hypocritical! Your logic surely works only one way, not in equal treatment of all the historic ‘exploiters’, only some exploiters. You don’t want CM seats to be reserved for SC/ST (Dalit/outcastes) on the logic that they were never kings, and they were treated badly by all other castes including Shudras.

    >3,300 Indian Administrative Officers (IAS), 2,376 are Brahmins;

    hmm, where did you get this number from? As I said, don’t let off some numbers, without basis.

    Here is a govt. URL that says 1985 Brahmin percentage in IAS was 37% (1,218) – http://isidev.nic.in/pdf/santosh1.pdf ; just throwing around numbers don’t make that real.

    And while at it also consider other statistics. Do you know who is cleaning the toilets of today? In Delhi majority of them are Bommans. Check this churumuri post – http://goo.gl/9Qt1J8 ; Perhaps you want reservation in that work too??

    And I see no point in continuing to debate with someone who is seriously advocating rising our capability to attack Britain!

    Good luck in your life. BYE.

  49. Vinay Says:

    And Narayan:

    Go back your own family tree and see what discrimination your ancestors have practiced against SC/ST castes in the past. You will probably have to immolate yourself to “atone”, going by that logic.

    And it makes me wild to see the so-called “OBCs” claiming to be “backward” and claiming reservation benefits. SC/STs I can understand, but what the devil are OBCs getting reservations for? They discriminated against SC/STs more than anyone else in history.

  50. Narayan Says:

    @ Harkol,

    I am not the one preaching an attack on Britain or discrimination against any particular caste here.

    You said “You can’t declare war on UK for what their British ancestors did”
    I said “we can but we have limitations.” Twisting a sentence out of context and saying that i am preaching an attack per se is stupidity.

    I was discriminated against because of my caste, how do you plan to set that right if you don’t want me to reverse discriminate?

    I (or my family members who are alive) never practiced untouchability. We never treated humans worse than animals.

    Our ancestors (mine and yours) did. You want to punish them all?

    If you could preach the same to your clan who still carry bigotedly supremacist attitude and see others down, it would make this world a lot better place.

    Our ancestors never treated any people with malice and have borne the brunt of discrimination. Don’t include us in your category for your convenience.

    By all means – Go hunt down folks who did such inhuman discrimination. Invent a time machine for doing that first.

    Simple universal human rights – You can’t punish a son for the sins of father, leave alone his fore-fathers.

    Discrimination by bommans has been on from past 2000 years and is still on. go visit sringeri, horanadu, kollur, brahmins are seated separately (different dining halls and special food for brahmins only) and rest are hoarded separately. Don’t play victim. You call yourselves the most superior caste and all other castes lower than yours. You have monopoly in temple priesthood and performance of Hindu religious rituals. You have complete reservation here.

    Likes of you don’t even know when you are consumed by hatred and can’t see reason. Because only likes of you can think of attacking Britain for sins of their forefathers. Perhpas, the likes of you would want to murder Muslims for the sins of their marauding & murdering forefathers??

    your devious designs in pitting one against the other has been your single most successful tool to rule. You are self appointed religious, cultural and socio-political guardians of the caste system instigating people of physically labouring castes “Shudras” against Muslims and Christians, by distracting them from issues concerning their own rights, discrimination and oppression in the caste system with hateful criticism against Muslims and Christians through brainwashing and fascist rallying of people shudra background under the delusionary and false ultra-nationalist Hindu identity.

    However, the likes of you won’t want Shudra’s to be massacred for the massacre of Brahmins done by Shudra Chola kings.

    Brahmins have never suffered any act of overt violence specifically directed against them in Tami Nadu unlike the shudras who are victims of daily acts of violence and atrocities due to caste bigotry, nor are Brahmins being persecuted or discriminated against.

    Nor do you want present day Shudra to be punished for their own bad treatment of ‘outcastes’. Do, check who did the night-soil in your ancestoral homes in villages, it was typically the ‘outcaste among out-castes’. They were called Thotti caste (in coastal Karnataka and Kerala). They cleaned the toilets of Shudras as well as Brahmins.

    even though they did that as their job, we never treated them as outcasts or untouchables like you do. Doing that job by itself does not constitute inhuman treatment per se, but practising untouchability and treating them like animals constitutes that. In my grandfathers house, thoti resided within our compound.

    3,300 Indian Administrative Officers (IAS), 2,376 are Brahmins;

    hmm, where did you get this number from? As I said, don’t let off some numbers, without basis.

    Check the outlook website.

    And while at it also consider other statistics. Do you know who is cleaning the toilets of today? In Delhi majority of them are Bommans. Check this churumuri post – http://goo.gl/9Qt1J8 ; Perhaps you want reservation in that work too??

    Thats the way forward. It is a good sign right. Should appreciate such people who are ready to take up jobs like these and earn a fair and square meal, they are way better than the manupulative kind.
    though they are taking away jobs, we dont mind it, in fact we ourselves will fight for your reservation, we are with you on this.

    And I see no point in continuing to debate with someone who is seriously advocating rising our capability to attack Britain!

    Good luck in your life. BYE.

    Dont twist and turn my words out of context, but wait a day may come soon where you will be advocating/instigating war on english for your own selfish ends. Divide and rule!!

    God bless…Namaste

  51. Narayan Says:

    @Vinay

    Go back your own family tree and see what discrimination your ancestors have practiced against SC/ST castes in the past. You will probably have to immolate yourself to “atone”, going by that logic.

    Before reseaching on my family tree, if you want to know what is discrimination today, just visit Sringeri, Horanadu, kollur temples, etc., and dine there. See how there is segregration of brahmins from nonbrahmins with separate dining hall for brahmins with special food and rest lower castes hoarded in a separate dining. We sit with fellow shudras including SC/ST here. If you cant fathom the fact, go immolate yourself now.

    And it makes me wild to see the so-called “OBCs” claiming to be “backward” and claiming reservation benefits. SC/STs I canh understand, but what the devil are OBCs getting reservations for? They discriminated against SC/STs more than anyone else in history.

    If it makes you wild, imagine how wild i should be when a socially privileged bigoted caste which has been oppressive of other castes and the miniscule community lording over the majority by .
    devious means of caste system hierarchy made by them for their own selfish ends. OBCs and SC/ST work side-by-side. Your devious evil bomman brain trying pit one against the other and divert from from issues concerning their rights, discrimination and oppression in the caste system with hateful criticism. This has been hallmark of your kind. If you still cant see the obvious and are delusional, then you will need help in an asylum.

  52. harkol Says:

    Vinay:
    >Go back your own family tree and see what discrimination your ancestors have practiced against SC/ST castes in the past. You will probably have to immolate yourself to “atone”, going by that logic.

    It is futile to try to make people, who are blinded by a cataract of bigotry, to see reason. Otherwise, one of these folks who talk of Shudra injustice, could’ve mentioned why is it that Shudras ruled majority of India for majority of time and still think they are disadvantaged. Narayana couldn’t name any Kshatriya kings of south India inspite of claiming 95% kings were Kshatriyas.

    The reason for this is simple. Brahmins, being the intellectuals, rarely took up arms (thus very few Brahmin ruling dynasties). Their protectionw as deemed to be a function of who ever ruled, and Brahmins were happy to do their ‘karma’ under them.

    So, any one who could gather an army and win territory become a Kshatriya thru Karma. Once becoming such ‘Karma Kshatriya’ they perpetuated the same cruel caste system on their own clansmen, because they were somehow no longer of that ‘caste’.

    The reason was simple – in a stratified, hierarchical society equality & human rights weren’t ideals. So, all men exploited – Men exploited women, rich exploited poor, king exploited peasants, brahmins exploited illiterate etc.

    This is the same as what has happened world over. Exploitation was the name of the game for thousands of years.

    So, I do believe there is some cause for being ashamed of the way human kind has evolved, but it is an evolution nevertheless. We evolved from being a fish, to vertebrates, to primates – to human beings, and that rite of passage hasn’t been kind – Many atrocities were committed. HomoSapiens(humans) wiped out our immediate ancestors – Neanderthals, and historians say humans may have even hunted and eaten them! Our evolution is cruel and it is continuing.

    So, I think it is only right to provide some sort of assistance to folks who are indeed dis-advantaged. However, we need rationality. It is ridiculous to have 50% reservation (and 70% in some states before courts step in). This idea should change to providing a disadvantaged-compensation (in grading & financial assistance). And disadvantages should include the factors like place of study, financial limitations, low/out-caste disadvantage and also Sex.

    Such affirmative actions should end once someone is through the door once (in education and first job), and not extended throughout their life (i.e. promotions). The idea is to help them get somewhere – not ensure they get an advantage over others all their life.

    Such compensatory grading and govt. financial assistance is entirely justified and is necessary. But, what we are doing is counter productive and is static. It just becomes reverse discrimination (justified as revenge for centuries of injustice as Narayana says here).

    It keeps giving the privileges of caste to same folks again and again, even when they are no longer ‘disadvantaged’ (for eg. children of bureaucrats, MP/MLAs and well employed folks).

    Reverse discrimination just on the basis of caste reverts us back to the same ugly system of thousands of years. That is untenable.

  53. Gaby Says:

    Nothing can be as ridiculous as two grown ups engaging in a squabble. Narayan has a point when he accuses Brahminical traditions as the root of many problems including the persistence of a caste riddles society and untouchability and patriarchy in Hindu communities. However it becomes whinging when he tries to apply this to every single Brahmin individual living and dead.

    Harkol starts off well, then tries to go on the moral high horse claiming Brahmins have also suffered as a result of their policy of segregation, without offering a reason why they continued to support it through time.

    I can see one consumed in his hatred for Brahminical traditions and the other with his disdain for positive affirmation for the backward and carrying his own hatred of Muslims. Sigh, when will men grow up.

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